Viessmann Disappointment

Tinman

HR - I agree with that. In the past year I have got direct and personal support from Lochinvar and Caleffi above tech support. Two stand up companies.

I haven't gone back to review this entire thread but was Viessmann tech support ever contacted?

Paul48

In someone's response, they mentioned Viessmann not wanting to cut themselves out of potential sales by taking the installer to task. That's a load of crap.....Viessmann should be getting involved, and if it is determined the unit is not installed to factory specification, go to bat for the consumer. Even if it involved taking legal actions for the consumer. Let that fact get around, and see if the hacks still want to rip folks off. Let the consumers know they have the full support of the company, and that will boost sales. They are taking the wrong approach. Their responsibility should not end at their loading dock.

Quercus

JC49,

I think it would be very helpful if you were to post pictures of the installation that communicate your problems. So far it looks like the reputation of Viessmann and the heating company's specialization in Viessmann installs are solid enough to prevent a rush to pick sides.

If your intent was to warn off potential customers, that does not appear to have happened. Pro's on this site are not bashful about calling out bad piping or venting. Posting the pics will show everyone what situation you are in and may actually help you get out of it. Right now it's all about the supply chain and that won't keep your house warm.

If I had been in your situation (and had been) where I had a fixation on Viessmann and saw that website I would have called the guy. As long as he didn't raise any red flags and pricing was right I would probably have given him the job. It's tough on the customer side but I think if you want to move on and get your system working, more detail is warranted.

Steve

Tinman

Paul48 - I think its completely irresponsible to even mention legal action after hearing ONE side of the story. Talk about hyperbole. Slow down.

Zman

I think this is a good conversation.
I absolutely agree that the way we distribute and support heating equipment in this country is pretty bizarre and could use a major overhaul.
I really don't mean to say that the manufacture should be completely absolved.
My point is that this post is made by an owner who does not appear to recognize that the issue is really with installing contractor that he has hired.
My advise would be to document the deficiencies in the installation and notify the contractor that you intend to recover damages in small claims court.
The owner does not appear to want to confront the contractor so is trying to smear a manufacture.
In reality the most the manufacture could do is send a rep to the job to agree or disagree with the owner's assertion.

Tinman

Hat - The only thing that really concerns me from the original post is the venting issue. The other things are relatively minor. How bad is the venting issue? Nobody knows? Was it the termination spacing? The height above anticipated snow level?
Used the wrong pipe? PVC instead of CPVC or PP? Lots of contractors still do that. Lots of unanswered questions.

GW alluded to the fact that he got an unfair rap from a customer. Well, It happened to me too in the past year so maybe I'm a little sensitive to it. Fact is, I didn't trust this guy from Day 1 and I documented everything from the get go. Emails, pictures... you name it, I've got it.

On top of that, its a first class design and install. He dropped the ball, not me. And then he made the mistake of bad mouthing me to the local supply house who, by the way, can't stand the guy. So I called him directly and made it clear that he ought to choose his next words carefully...slander and defamation of my character based on 100% lies will not be tolerated. I work extremely hard to build and maintain a solid reputation and I'm not going to let one guy ruin that. Can anyone relate to that?

My point is this - What if my customer made his falsehoods known on another heating website and everyone bought his story lock, stock, and two smoking barrels? No matter how inaccurate his claims were, my good rep would take a serious hit.

Paul Pollets

There's always another viewpoint. The last time a homeowner complained about a contractor and Viessmann's failure to ship a part in a timely manner, it turned out the homeowner lived on an island in Lake Michigan without daily overnight shipping available. The complaint was not reasonable, nor did the homeowner share his exact location in his posts. Hopefully we will hear the other side of this story.

NYplumber

I would like to add a piece of info to this thread since AOsmith was brought up as well as Lochinvar. For every good experience you had, someone did not have a good experience. A colegue of mine installed the Crest from Lochinvar and the job was thrown under the rug when they asked for help. The Crest is no small machine, this company installs BIG steel boilers, and will never use the brand again. On another job I was told by the rep that the job i was servicing was piped wrong (when it was piped as per manufacturers literature). Took me three months to find the issue that lochinvar chased for years to no avail, but the boilers (a couple million btu) work for some time aince the issue was corrected. I will not install another Lochinvar.
My point being, our future installs are based off of our experience. We are installers, the OP is a customer - end user. When you add a customer into the mix there arent two sides to the story, there are now three sides. Dont go running to install or not install a boiler based soly off of what you read in a forum post. If you wernt at the job, and dont know the whole story. Still awaiting pics. We already know the customers jurisdiction based off the OP bad mouthing the installer.
This is between the client and the installer. Not viessmann. They sold a working boiler.

Bob Bona_4

Reps will generally not talk to the HO. The relationship should be between installer and rep. And if the wholesaler is a stand up outfit, they should be vested in solving the problem as well. I've dropped wholesalers for leaving me to dry, and then I have to find and beat on a rep for support. Its a shame, bc there are less wholesalers than manufacturers.

Not clear here what the OP's issue is with the boiler.

Tinman

I guess I'm lucky here in the Chicago area. We have some great reps locally like Lyall Thresher and Associates, R.C. Sales, Bornquist, and others.
And then we have supply houses like Porter Pipe and Supply who employ people like Piotr Zelasko. The guy would run through a brick wall for me and he's as sharp as any hydronic mind I've ever met.

Harvey Ramer

Stephen Minnich said:

I guess I'm lucky here in the Chicago area. We have some great reps locally like Lyall Thresher and Associates, R.C. Sales, Bornquist, and others.
And then we have supply houses like Porter Pipe and Supply who employ people like Piotr Zelasko. The guy would run through a brick wall for me and he's as sharp as any hydronic mind I've ever met.

Yes you are lucky. I'm pretty much on my own here. This area has become somewhat plagued with heatpumps and that seems to be what the wholesalers want to fool with.

Gordy

The thing is most consumers don't understand the differences in boiler brand choices, and how it reflects in support down the road. They don't understand why a contractor has his select few when there are so many more to choose from. It's up to the prospective installer to explain this to a potential customer. Sadly some contractors just want the job, and are willing to compromise their ability to support the customers product choice to get the work. Stephen does his part to make it a point my way or no way.

Tinman

Thanks Gordy. I hope I don't come off as that hard core? I just want to do whats best for all involved.

Paul48

My thoughts are not intended to take sides with either, or any party related to this post. There simply isn't enough information to form an opinion. I was commenting on the bigger picture. The cancer that reveals itself, here, on this forum daily. That's not hyperbole, it's a fact. Someone or some thing needs to step forward to protect the consumer. Ya gotta wonder.........do they do it like this in the highly efficient country of Germany?

4Johnpipe

I'm relatively sure the OP was not looking for opinions as much as they were looking for direct experience with the manufacturer. I read some very good experiences with the manufacturer in the responses.
I do agree with the response the title of the post could have been "Perry Disappointment" . I have gone out to troubleshoot installs by others with 2 different manufacturers product. The almost immediate response after saying hello to the homeowner is "I hope they send me a new unit...they (installer) replaced the same part 2 / 3 times and it seems to have failed again"!
This always puts me as a "contractor" and as a "representative" of the product in a strange light. With the exception of 1 time with a tankless unit is has always been an installer error that caused a failure. In some cases I instructed the original installer if they were still in the picture in other cases I was paid to make the recommended repair. Either way it was money in pocket, happy customer and restored trust in the product.
I hope this will be the outcome of the OP's situation...

BobC

As a manufacturer you have to be acutely aware of your reputation, if somebody is having a problem with your product it is up to the manufacturer to find out why and fix it - it's just good business practice. Getting into a pissing contest about why there's a problem does no one any good.

I worked for a manufacturer for most of my working career as a technician, then an engineer, and finally in management. We sold power supplies, mostly custom, to customers and if a problem came up we had our local rep go out and see what was up. If the rep needed more help somebody was on a plane the next day to ferret out the problem.

I made some of those trips myself and the first thing I did was to listen very carefully to the complaint, I would then inspect the installation to see what was wrong. Sometimes it was the installation and sometimes it was an interface problem between our equipment and theirs. I never assigned blame, I came up with a solution that would solve the problem and did whatever I had to implement the solution. By the time I went home the customer knew we would stand behind the product and a lot of them used us for new installations as they came up.

One morning at about 0630 I picked up the phone at the plant and found a ships communications officer who was very upset about a power supply error on a new system on his cruiser that could cause him to miss fleet maneuvers. He was at the navy yard and wanted something done NOW before the captain did something unmentionable to him. He had looked at the power supply label and realized we were just 20 miles away. This was used in a complex system that interfaced with systems all over the ship. We supplied the power supply to the prime contractor and they installed it in their gear and that was installed on the ship. I asked him for the serial number of the supply and found out it was an early model that should have been swapped out for a newer revision, the prime contractor had messed up. I knew exactly what the problem was so I told him I could be on site in an hour. I gathered the parts and some tools, threw them into a breifcase and was dockside within the hour.

That commander was really happy to see me show up, he assigned someone to work with me and told me to ask if I needed anything. It took about an hour to get the supply out and apart and about 20 minutes to change a few parts. We put it all back together and everything worked. He thanked me for coming out so he could get the skipper off his back. The next day he had a half gallon of Wild Turkey delivered to the plant.

There was nothing wrong with that power supply, the problem was the prime contractors specification was wrong so we had to make a change to make it interface with the system, they should have sent it back to us for retrofit. It cost me a days work and about $20 worth of parts but we ended up with a happy customer so it was worth it.

Bob

KC_Jones

I work for an OEM manufacturer of industrial refrigeration and HVAC equipment. We have gone so far as to send VP's to a job site to look things over. Our reputation is our business. When we come out with something new and have long time customers willing to act as guinea pigs they will generally get direct contact with the designing engineer. We are all about customer service. My take on this is no matter who is at fault all parties involved should be just that, involved. The contractor should be dealing with Viessmann on this. To me the homeowner should just expect results from anyone, that is what they paid for after all. Everyone says the post should read Perry Disappointment, I say the post should have never had a need to exist. But I also know the world isn't perfect.

Rich_49

This has turned out to be a hell of a discussion . I really Like Mr. O'Briens choice of the word " Sacrosanct " to describe our present supply chain Debacle . pretty much sums it up.

To those who have stated that Veissmann did not sell a non functioining boiler I say this , How would they know ? They did not investigate or send a rep to make a determination .
I had a boiler a week ago that had a circuit broken in the main board . I called my rep and HTP , a very nice man spent his whole day at a station in new bedford troubleshooting all matter of garbage to get me a solution . Whence he determined that it had to be a faulty board he called me to tell me the result . He then offered fast freight or if I could wait a bit that the rep would come change the stuff for me . i chose the later and that man's name is Dave Davis . Owner of HTP and a man who seemingly knows that every bad story puts his livlihood in jeopardy , he also knows his reps better give service also if his company is to succeed . Quit defending piss poor communications and have a back bone you bunch of jellyfish . This is one of the things that is needed to fix our broken , damn near extinct trade . As long as we tolerate poor treatment we should expect nothing else .

j a_2

jonny88 said:

Last week I went to a supply house I use because they were introducing HTP to their store.All products were on display etc.Reps were there who going to be representing their territory.They promised they would come to job site if I had a problem with a unit.And I know that this is true as Langans Plumbing in Jersey use a lot of their products and when needed got support from HTP.As Hat said IBC were introducing their boiler in Boston.I have no affiliation with the company other than I like their product,the trainer for IBC came to my house on Long Island after his demo inBoston.He was on his way back to Wisconsin.He went over my boiler changed a few parameters etc all because I asked over the phone about having a ignition that I thought was a bit rough.He spent 2 hrs at my house explaining everything to me.How much?Nothing.That is why I will use their products.Ask @Rich about HTP.Do they give you support.My problem with this situation is that a rep set up a date to meet the HO. and never came.To the OP please correct me if I am wrong.Damn I needed a Sep4 and couldn't get it.Bob Rohr got me one in 3 days.Support.BTW I will be installing a Veissmann in 2 weeks as I know it is a great company.JC49 did the rep say he was coming to your house?
Ask the Navien rep on Long Island how busy he is.They hired a guy to go around fixing boilers some that are bad and of course some that got installed incorrectly.They are looking for someone else at least they were a month ago.Its a tough call but Veissmann are large enough and should not want their reputation dragged through the mud like this where you have a company claiming 20 yrs experience with their product.Lets see.

Honestly I think it's a role of the dice, I really don't think any manufacture cares about anything except the bottom line...they constantly cut there support people...the company you speak of above is no different than the rest of them...They all talk the talk, give out hot digity dogs and a cold coke...put on a great show and tell you how much better they are than the others...Two months later that same b s guy is telling you the same about another product, cause he got laid off....from xyz company....there just all the same just different paint

Paul Pollets

Ya gotta wonder.........do they do it like this in the highly efficient country of Germany?

In Germany, the contractors are all required to have substantial training and belong to the Guild. That's not the case in N. America and many contractors struggle with basic installation requirements, never mind the boiler selection.

Paul48

Paul...........Are the plumbing and HVAC trades separate?

GW

Paul48 said:

Paul...........Are the plumbing and HVAC trades separate?

There is a distinct difference in how the HVAC trade and the plumbing/boiler trade works, we do both, the difference is quite noticeable.

Quercus

Quercus said:

Posting the pics will show everyone what situation you are in and may actually help you get out of it.

Bueller, anyone? anyone?

I have no evidence one way or the other but it would not surprise me if someone who had installed Viessmann for 20 years got a callback from a customer who made claims of improper install, took photos of the install, spoke to Viessmann and passed on the photos, end of story. Certainly no backup from the OP who only seemed interested in tossing a turd bomb.

There seems to be less to the story here.

Zman

@JC49
The OP is long gone on this one. He was just here trying to get Viessmann's attention.
As far as we (and Viessmann) know there is nothing wrong with his system.
Pictures?

Good discussion though...

Paul48

GW..............I was referring to Germany, is that what you meant, as well? If so , can you elaborate on the practices in Germany?

GW

Paul48 said:

GW..............I was referring to Germany, is that what you meant, as well? If so , can you elaborate on the practices in Germany?

ahhh my mistake, I was talking USA

JC49

Hatterasguy said:

There is some expectation that the manufacturer will step up and make the HO whole because the manufacturer has their name on the boiler.

No real difference in owning a Ford automobile and getting no satisfaction from the dealer. The consumer seeks redress from the manufacturer.

At the moment, your conclusion that the boiler is somehow without fault is a miraculous feat of clairvoyance. It may be perfectly manufactured and improperly installed and setup. On the other hand, it may have a manufacturing defect preventing the installer from getting the proper performance from it.

Thanks for understanding my point. I'm very happy with the viessmann technology & product. but how can I fully appreciate the technology of the boiler when I can't find an installer who cares enough to install it right the FIRST time? My time is money just like everyone else here. I don't have time and money to waste. That's why you hire a professional, right?

hot rod said:

Of course if more manufacturers would monitor HeatingHelp they could avoid or at least de-escalate situations like this.

A simple, quick, polite phone call goes a long way still.

Zman said:

@JC49
The OP is long gone on this one. He was just here trying to get Viessmann's attention.
As far as we (and Viessmann) know there is nothing wrong with his system.
Pictures?

Good discussion though...

Oh, I'm still here. To the people who realized my point and offered valued & positive input, thank you. Let me clarify, I had problems with an install and I reached out to viessmann via a phone call for assistance in finding a qualified professional to resolve my issues. I did not receive an adequate response from them. Even though they are not responsible for the install which I understand, I think they should be able to offer support on their product. Since this post, I am now in contact with them and I'm sure they will help resolve my issues. Thank you for your interest in the post.

jonny88

What happened with the installer.@JC49 can you post some pics of install so we all have a better understanding of the situation.I heard a rep made an appointment with you and never showed up.Is this true.Thanks for coming back and hopefully you will keep us informed as to how it progresses.

JAdams

JC49 said:

Hatterasguy said:

There is some expectation that the manufacturer will step up and make the HO whole because the manufacturer has their name on the boiler.

No real difference in owning a Ford automobile and getting no satisfaction from the dealer. The consumer seeks redress from the manufacturer.

At the moment, your conclusion that the boiler is somehow without fault is a miraculous feat of clairvoyance. It may be perfectly manufactured and improperly installed and setup. On the other hand, it may have a manufacturing defect preventing the installer from getting the proper performance from it.

Thanks for understanding my point. I'm very happy with the viessmann technology & product. but how can I fully appreciate the technology of the boiler when I can't find an installer who cares enough to install it right the FIRST time? My time is money just like everyone else here. I don't have time and money to waste. That's why you hire a professional, right?

hot rod said:

Of course if more manufacturers would monitor HeatingHelp they could avoid or at least de-escalate situations like this.

A simple, quick, polite phone call goes a long way still.

Zman said:

@JC49
The OP is long gone on this one. He was just here trying to get Viessmann's attention.
As far as we (and Viessmann) know there is nothing wrong with his system.
Pictures?

Good discussion though...

Oh, I'm still here. To the people who realized my point and offered valued & positive input, thank you. Let me clarify, I had problems with an install and I reached out to viessmann via a phone call for assistance in finding a qualified professional to resolve my issues. I did not receive an adequate response from them. Even though they are not responsible for the install which I understand, I think they should be able to offer support on their product. Since this post, I am now in contact with them and I'm sure they will help resolve my issues. Thank you for your interest in the post.

I'm very glad I read this thread in it's entirety before posting a comment. When there are problems with a product, whether it's the product or the install, being consistent with the manufacturer will get you results. Sometime it may take time, but you will get results. Most manufacturers will recommend an installer/service professional, in your area, who is registered with them.

Patience is a virtue.

GW

jonny88 said:

.I heard a rep made an appointment with you and never showed up.Is this true.

Not a super-productive comment/question!! Wow---

Rich_49

Gary . Why is John's comment unproductive ? I think the question and possible answer will go to the heart of the problem being discussed here . Manufacturers and reps not responding to whomever and supporting the brand .

Many who have participated in this discussion seem to think that the OP is just whining and crying and it appears that is not the case . Had the manufacturer responded to a request for a recommendation for a truly qualified installer this may never have been posted , that would have been preferable . Maybe the Veissman expert is not really so expert and now many know this . Maybe the manufacturer can contact the expert and determine what went wrong . At a minimum John's comment at least had something to offer the discussion or an attempt to get a bit more information where I fail to see what your comment added . But that's just me .

GW

Rich, my concern was it was based on hearsay, suggesting the homeowner ditched his responsibility to see the process move forward. Way too many 'maybes' and very few (two-sided) facts. But we heating guys like to interject out thoughts at the drop of a hat it seems.

Rich_49

Only hearsay until the Op confirms or denies that this happened . How do we get there without asking the question was my point .
Thanks for accepting the comment that went along with my disagree for what it was and responding like a gentleman . Something too often not done on these forums . have a good day Gary .

Paul48

It was brought up in this discussion, in a round-about way. The comment was made about the manufacturer not wanting to lose sales to the contractor. I think a lot of manufacturers lose sight of who the real customer is. We have seen it, when the manufacturer was involved, and refused to take the contractor to task, for obviously shoddy work. We have seen the manufacturer refuse to get involved, when the contractor needs assistance. To those manufacturers, I'll quote..." Lead, Follow, or Get out of the way".

Rich_49

We have all witnessed the power of this internet . I do not believe the coveted supply chain and the way it has operated for years with it's agreements and such can survive for far longer . Manufacturers and reps alike will have to realize this or suffer at the bottom line .

Bob Bona_4

And talk about a moving market. How many product lines appear, then disappear. Scary.

Robert O'Brien

Paul48 said:

I think a lot of manufacturers lose sight of who the real customer is.

You got that right!

Robert O'Brien

Bob Bona said:

And talk about a moving market. How many product lines appear, then disappear. Scary.

Way too many mod/cons chasing a market that isn't that big. Definitely not enough seats for all the asses!

Rich_49

Soon , surely , the cream will rise to the top .

Tinman

Haven't they already?