Viessmann Disappointment

4Johnpipe

It really is like Dan says in his new book...people perhaps contractors more so are afraid to admit that they don't know...

Rich_49

No mystery there Bob . That's why those contractors are considered at the upper echelon , they have always known the value of knowledge and training .

I once heard a conversation referenced ,

" What if we spend all this money to train these guys and they leave ? What if we don't train them and they stay ? "

Pretty damned prophetic , would you not agree ?

SWEI

GW said:

My opinion is the manufacturers should list competent contractors on their web sites.

The mini-split manufacturers are pretty good about this. They have 'preferred installer' programs that require completion of both in-person and online training in order to get listed. Some of them even list the number of systems by category each of the contractors have installed. OTOH we all know contractors who do substandard work but move a lot of product, which can be difficult for most manufacturers to see past.

The reps know the goons from the guys that have a clue, and not to share that info with the public seems odd.

It takes a fairly proactive and knowledgeable customer to know enough to find the rep and make contact. That sort of customer is far less likely overall to get hurt IMO.

GW

4Johnpipe said:

It really is like Dan says in his new book...people perhaps contractors more so are afraid to admit that they don't know...

I'm not sure this is a new phenomenon. It's probably been that way since the dawn of commerce. When one's got a family to feed, and they are behind the 8 ball, who knows what fibs get told. Shoot, look at Bernie Madoff, this isn't just a contractor issue by any stretch.

Gordy

Let's face it when it comes to many things most consumers do not plan for it, and research it. Unless it's that new T.V., stereo, car, cell phone, computer,(insert favorite non essential item).

They act when something of necessity is needed when it breaks. That usually happens in an emergency situation, and ends up being who can accommodate on a moments notice, and what they have to offer.

Example:

I'm going to need a new boiler eventually. I'm going to research my choices of boilers, and a competent company to install it.

Reality:

It's -10 out the boiler took a dump, and speedy heating service is the only available contractor that they know little about, and they only offers xyz boiler that you know little about. So they get the job because you need heat.

True this is not all consumers, but in reality this is usually how things happen. Is it really all the consumers fault that there are vultures circling to take advantage of a situation.

CMadatMe

Where is the original poster? We've kinda stole the thread into something it wasn't about but would like to know if I've been off base with my original and follow up response to his post.

Just felt like there was too much disinformation and wanted to try and straighten out the record.

Paul48

I really take exception with blaming the victim.....period. Because it opens the door for it EVER being right. It is under no circumstances, fair, right, or just.

Paul Pollets

"My opinion is the manufacturers should list competent contractors on their web sites. The reps know the goons from the guys that have a clue, and not to share that info with the public seems odd. "

Manufacturers are largely hesitant to post a list of contractors who are qualified because sharing the list allows other manufacturers to see who is buying that product and potentially solicit them for sales.

We still have never seen pics of the installation so commenting is rather moot. Sometimes a homeowner just can't be satisfied, no matter what the issues are. As an installer who uses Viessmann equipment, I was particularly interested in this thread. I'm well aware of the problems in the trade with so much sub-standard
work being done. It saddens me that only a few can execute the craft at a high level, most work I see is at a mediocre level, or worse. Less diamond plate...more pipe insulation.

CMadatMe

Victim? There was never a victim, the contractor in this case has always been a phone call away, was always willing to correct issues and never ducked him. There's a lot more this contractor did for the original poster that's not being stated.

CMadatMe

Paul, I have pics of the job. Like I said previously at install the mixing valve was installed in the wrong position and was fixed immediately once the contractor was notified of an issue. Other issues do need to be addressed but the boiler installation did pass inspection.

The over heating of the room is cause by two issues. The first is the heating curve, which the contractor told the homeowner at install would have to be fined tuned and would require additional visits as the heating season progressed. It's been pretty much in the 40-60's and might even hit the 70's. Second, the homeowner informed the contractor that at some point he was going to have someone come in and foam insulate but wasn't sure when. Well that's also happened now. So another room dynamic has changed.

System is running constant circulation so a 2 minute shift/curve change needs to be done. See the reaction of the room to it and if needed adjust more. Homeowner just doesn't seem to have the patience or understanding so in his mind the contractor doesn't know what he is doing because he can't set it right the 1st time.

Paul Pollets

I was aware of the issues from your previous posts. I also spoke with Michael Lutz when he was in Seattle several weeks ago. I never comment on what I can't see, or if it's none of my business. I was more concerned that that the issues were satisfied so there was no blemish on the manufacturer due to neglect.

Paul48

Chris........The victim statement was aimed at those that were rallying behind the fact that "people get what they deserve". It was not necessarily meant for this post, and neither were the scumbag comments. That someone can become so jaded that they take pleasure in someone else's misery, is beyond me. Before someone makes a comment like that, they need to remove the word customer from the post, and insert "mom or dad" in its place. Then, do you still feel as joyous about someone being taken advantage of?

Paul48

About 20 years ago, we purchased a new Pontiac for my wife. The car died while driving it home from the dealer. While waiting for the car to be "fixed" at the dealership, we talked to a young woman. Her car had just been fixed and they were bringing it out. They presented her with a bill for $180(20 yrs ago), and showed her that they had taped up some wires. She proceeded to throw a hissy-fit, as loudly as she possibly could. She was ushered to the service managers desk, where the bill was reduced to $40.
We took our "fixed", new automobile home, and it died again. Again, we took it back and they fixed it. It died again and we went in to talk to the business manager. My wife told him she didn't want the car. His response was,"it don't work like that lady". My wife proceeded to throw the loudest hissy-fit, she could possibly muster in their showroom. Folks stopped looking at cars and began looking at my wife. It was a performance worthy of Broadway. We were ushered into his office, and told we could take any car we desired.
The moral of the story is.........Sometimes ya gotta do, what ya gotta do. No one can say, how this man's story would have played out, had he not created a sh---storm. He was looking out for himself and his family. If he had to bash a manufacturer....oh well.

4Johnpipe

@GW

I'm not sure this is a new phenomenon. It's probably been that way since the dawn of commerce. When one's got a family to feed, and they are behind the 8 ball, who knows what fibs get told. Shoot, look at Bernie Madoff, this isn't just a contractor issue by any stretch.

Agreed...

Paul48

The truth's on both sides may lie somewhere in the middle. Something made the mouse roar, and I'll bet he doesn't regret it, one bit. He shouldn't.

GW

Paul, now that you mention that (other manufacturers may solicit the contractor), I have heard that excuse too, many many years ago...frankly that makes no sense. Any contractor with a good reputation and a few bucks sitting in his checking account ( aka pays their bills) will get solicited by a host of sales people, selling everything under the sun.

I've been continuously asked to try Fujitsu mini splits, this year I finally bought a couple (I'm a diamond dealer on Mitsubishis Web site). I've been pursued by the Carrier Bryant sales guy (I'm a Premier dealer listed on Lennox Web site ), this year I bought 5 or 6 systems.

Unless I'm mistaken, contractors are always getting asked to buy all sorts of stuff. The Viessmann line is awesome, but to say they won't publish a directory because they fear their top of the line contractors will get skimmed seems a bit off the mark. Us contractors are already exposed to many different products, continously. These sales people and reps routinely walk into my office, many are quite good at what they do.

I think the homeowners need to know who has a clue. Anything else is outdated mindset

Merry Christmas to all.

Rich_49

Gary ,

Turning the higher end , well known contractors can really be leveraged by manufacturers . Don't for a minute think that what Paul says is not done for those reasons . Remember , at the end of the day they are salesmen .

Yes , they do solicit everyone but there is something quite special about telling others how the guys listed on a manufacturers site are also using their product or that they have switched to their product

GW

Rich said:

Gary ,

Turning the higher end , well known contractors can really be leveraged by manufacturers . Don't for a minute think that what Paul says is not done for those reasons . Remember , at the end of the day they are salesmen .

Yes , they do solicit everyone but there is something quite special about telling others how the guys listed on a manufacturers site are also using their product or that they have switched to their product

Rich, I don't understand your first sentence, "Turning the higher end , well known contractors can really be leveraged by manufacturers ", can you please re-phrase

When you say, "telling others' what do you mean, and who is telling whom in this example? The manufacturers telling other manufacturers ? How does that relate to the subject of online directory of a contractor having some sort of clue how to work on a manufacturer's boiler?

Gary

GeneGross

I would like to just take a moment to resurrect this thread.

Quick background, I'm a wholesaler we sell Viessmann boilers, my dad sold Viessmann boilers that's what paid for my childhood. I am unashamed to say that I am biased.

This is a big weekend in my region, we are a summer destination (northern MI) we had an issue with a CU3A that was installed about a year ago, which is pretty uncharacteristic of our Viessmann boilers, and this series in particular, which have proven to be rock solid machines. Sales **** I know sorry!

Anyway, reading through this thread I see many comments on how wholesalers and manufacturers generally do not take care of their end users anymore. It is by pure chance I stumbled upon this thread at such a related moment. One of my contractors was replacing ignition/ionization electrodes in a CU3A57 today and managed to fry a control board in the process. We don't discuss price, but you guys know this is not a cheap part.

Anyway. Our contractors are what make our paychecks, that's how we operate. Of course I didn't have a board on my shelf, we haven't stocked these boilers for long, and they don't really "fail" they get fried. So I did what every wholesaler should do. I took a brand new board off of a stock boiler to give to the contractor so that the end user would have hot water this week. In the meantime I contacted our regional sales rep (he was on vacation by the way) , who is a licensed mechanical contractor himself (even has commercial boiler licenses in michigan and ohio still), to make sure I had done the right thing in this instance. Everything panned out, our rep was on the way to a homeowners place to troubleshoot a boiler that had been installed wrong when I contacted him. He fixed the issue he was tasked with, and our issue was taken care of seamlessly.

This whole thread had me scratching my head. The only issue I have ever had with viessmann is the tech support line. But being a wholesaler I have ready access to sales rep, and my sales guy (who does so much more than sales) The sales reps do make it out to customers houses. they do trouble shoot, they do make sure that the boiler is installed correctly. And at least in terms of my warehouse, we do make sure the contractors that install our equipment have us as support before they ever even call tech support, for any product we sell.

Just wanted to make it known that there still are old school suppliers who actually hold themselves accountable for the equipment they sell.

DanHolohan

Thanks for saying that, Gene. You are my model for what a fine wholesaler is all about. Your contractor customers are lucky to have you on guard at all times. Well done!

Paul Pollets

Not sure how you would fry a control board by changing the ionization rod, but I appreciate your over-the-top service to your customers. My dad would always open the shop to get a needed part for a plumber on Saturday or Sunday... way before the internet simplified shopping.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Way to go, @GeneGross!

Total1

After the Boiler . a viessman vitodens130 was installed , I had a few questions . Call the support line and they were awesome . They even had a demo unit that they stepped me through the settings .... Not a MINUTE of trouble with it since ...

GW

Paul48 said:

About 20 years ago, we purchased a new Pontiac for my wife. The car died while driving it home from the dealer. While waiting for the car to be "fixed" at the dealership, we talked to a young woman. Her car had just been fixed and they were bringing it out. They presented her with a bill for $180(20 yrs ago), and showed her that they had taped up some wires. She proceeded to throw a hissy-fit, as loudly as she possibly could. She was ushered to the service managers desk, where the bill was reduced to $40.
We took our "fixed", new automobile home, and it died again. Again, we took it back and they fixed it. It died again and we went in to talk to the business manager. My wife told him she didn't want the car. His response was,"it don't work like that lady". My wife proceeded to throw the loudest hissy-fit, she could possibly muster in their showroom. Folks stopped looking at cars and began looking at my wife. It was a performance worthy of Broadway. We were ushered into his office, and told we could take any car we desired.
The moral of the story is.........Sometimes ya gotta do, what ya gotta do. No one can say, how this man's story would have played out, had he not created a sh---storm. He was looking out for himself and his family. If he had to bash a manufacturer....oh well.

The toils of living in a first world nation. I was in Mexico a few years ago, and on the tour some of the 1st world nation folks (including myself) were blown away that some of the locals still live 'off grid', like they did centuries ago. The tour guide ( a local) says in so many words..."yes but they don't have the daily problems you have". I was speechless.
I wish i was there to see your wife's performance, sounds like she rocked it.