The most steam systems in Massachsetts? New England?

ChrisJ

agurkas said:

ChrisJ, I did get a quote for new boiler and making changes to it. About 3x what I paid for heat pumps and converting existing one. And I did tweak the heck out of what I have with all your help. Just cycling and Ecobee coupled with 6 degree offset cut my gas bill 10%. 68f when home, 62f when out. Yes, did compare to keeping at same temp.

You have natural gas, but are using heat pumps........

SWEI

Hatterasguy said:

SWEI said:

When forced air is done properly -- it's expensive.

Properly sized, installed, sealed, and insulated supply and return ducts to every room. Now buy a modulating furnace with constant pressure-controlled ECM VS blower along with a bunch of zone dampers and controls.

many of those commenting on forced air have never experienced the system you describe, and yet they bash the typical forced air system as inadequate.

My forced air experience comes mostly from data centers and high end commercial projects. I literally can't believe what most people put up with at home these days. Multi-head inverter-driven ductless systems are a HUGE upgrade, but (at least around here) 80+% of the contractors installing them don't have a clue how to size or commission them. Just like boilers, when they're done right, they rock. But good radiant still kicks the pants off them. The best answer IME is hybrid systems with radiant and 100% MUA like they use now in Europe. Once you've seen 6-8" trunks feeding 4" ducts handle a large commercial space without a hiccup, the light tends to go on.

The point is that a proper a/c system needs most of the above anyway. The heat isn't much of an addition (other than the larger ductwork).

Agreed, for the milder climates -- especially those seeing a lot of hours of high latent loads. Locations with sustained low winter temps that have natural gas available almost always pencil out better using some kind of hybrid design IME.

agurkas

ChrisJ said:

You have natural gas, but are using heat pumps........

ChrisJ, with help of some folks here I was able to figure out that my break even point at current electric rates and cost of NG is turning on heat pumps at 40F. Did it old school way of looking at home much I burn and how much electricity it costs me to make X degrees change in the rooms.

Now part of the house that is forced air, no heat pumps there, just 97% efficiency condensing furnace.

Also, re. heating part of the house and not whole. I did test that theory on my house. After one week test for each, I was basically looking at on average 1 hour more boiler on time for whole house. Not really worth it when those rooms aren't used when in-laws are not visiting.

ChrisJ

@agurkas,

I wish you the best and hope everything works well for you.
It's just not what I would have done. But then again, I'm like @Fred, weird.

agurkas

ChrisJ,
Haven't left world of steam yet. Going to take care of the beast downstairs for as long as it serves us. Just not going to pour any more capital investments into it. It will end up being backup system for the sub-0 days, after we insulate the house.

Fred

There's an old adage that goes: What goes around, comes around, Everything that is old, is new again. Just remember, Steam is the wave of the future! (When the dust (from scourched air) settles.

agurkas

Fred said:

There's an old adage that goes: What goes around, comes around, Everything that is old, is new again. Just remember, Steam is the wave of the future! (When the dust (from scourched air) settles.

Fred, I would be more bullish, but new generation is not picking up Dan's books. When you have large number of steam "specialists" who can't explain what a wet return is and those in their 50s unable to adapt to modern times, whole craft suffers. It isn't the cost of fuel, that may kill steam, it is the cost of maintaining it, when you have to beg for that one steam guy you know is still around to come look at your system.

ChrisJ

agurkas said:

Fred said:

There's an old adage that goes: What goes around, comes around, Everything that is old, is new again. Just remember, Steam is the wave of the future! (When the dust (from scourched air) settles.

Fred, I would be more bullish, but new generation is not picking up Dan's books. When you have large number of steam "specialists" who can't explain what a wet return is and those in their 50s unable to adapt to modern times, whole craft suffers. It isn't the cost of fuel, that may kill steam, it is the cost of maintaining it, when you have to beg for that one steam guy you know is still around to come look at your system.

Yeah,
Until some companies wake up and start producing high efficiency systems for steam. Then we might end up with systems running more efficient than hot water with far less parts to fail and no bleeding, ever.

Steam has the potential to be king. If given a chance.

Ask Gerry Gill.

Fred

There are a number of "Saving graces" that will keep steam alive for many, many more years, aside from the quality of the heat, including:
- It is very fuel effecient. I noted your gas bill for your 3000 sq. ft. home and I don't know what you have to pay for a unit of gas but your bill is about 75% of that for 5000 sq. ft. I know there are a lot of variables and it is not my intent to open that can of worms again but I will say when I bought this house 24 years ago, my gas bill was $900.00/mo. and the highest I've had in the last several years is $400.00, including HW, Gas Dryer and Cooking (although minimal). Probably sealing up a structure can save more than any heating system over another.
- It may be difficult to find a great Steam Pro but they are out there. You just need to find them before a crisis occurs.
- Even though steam Pro's may be a dying breed (not sure I agree with that but for the sake of argument, I'll give you that for the moment) many, many of us have learned our own systems so well that we can and do fix them ourselves. It's like the old cars; when they broke, our parents crawled under it and fixed it. With all the new electronics designed into the new systems, it's impossible for a homeowner to really diagnose a problem. We may not have the knowledge to fix all the variations of steam systems but if the Homeowner really cares about his home/infrastructure, you can bet he/she will know their system.
- For those who choose to ignore their systems until it doesn't work, they have a site like this to get great advice and referrals and they learn in the process.
- There is a solid movement to save our historic treasures and keep them as original as possible, including the heating systems/ radiators (which in most cases are works of art).
- Steam is still huge in industrial/manufacturing settings and tthe skills are there, coupled with the fact that some of that technology will trickle down to residential systems, if not by boiler manufacturers, by innovative people that service and install them.
- The systems are in place in residential settings today, tens of thousands of them, as a matter of fact. Most people will weigh the cost of tearing into their walls and everything else to install duct work compared to replacing a failed boiler and using the infrastructure that is already in place.
- Steam makes most people happy. Even though we see a lot of issues here, I am confident there are equally as many issues with forced air and poor installations. The homeowner owes it to themselves to be knowledgable and savey enough to understand what they have and what a contractor might give them. A bad install, regardless of the technology will always be a bad install and likely pose a problem.
- There are more and more options available to anyone who wants to add central air and keep their steam intact. People will also weigh those costs compared to replacing both at one time.

Not trying to change your mind, just saying steam isn't dead yet and won't be for a long, long time, nor will the good Installation/Service Pro's fall off the edge of the earth anytime soon.

SWEI

The magic of phase change. Not going away any time soon.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

The magic of phase change. Not going away any time soon.

Phase change...

Wait, you mean the same exact thing that makes a heat pump work?

When you convert a liquid into a gas it absorbs a ton of energy. When it condenses back into a liquid you get 100% of that energy back out.

Nice, isn't it?

SWEI

It's a nonlinear portion of the curve. Figure out how to use it to your advantage and you get to bend a few rules.

agurkas

Fred,
Re. steam specialists, good ones seem to stay with commercial and won't go into residential. Residential customers are abusive while in commercial you are dealing with building engineers who may be more proficient. I don't think my heating guys met too many customers who read books on steam, like I do, because I am kind of guy who worked on carbureted cars, but also equally enjoys the newest stuff.

As my HVAC guy said, what really kills ROI of any further investment into my steam system is that over the years things were done to it without thinking through it. He said it felt like plumber was just called in to add and remove pipes without any sort of calculations. House was gut-rehabbed 3 times since 30s it was built in. It is a Frankenstein I am fixing corner by corner foot by foot. And it is a Cape, not something historic or special, so I will just modernize it.

I do have to tell you though, I like those mini-splits. Being able to have different temperatures in all rooms is just so nice. And if incentives for solar panels stay and prices for the install continue falling, like they do, it is hard to not put that investment into equation.

ChrisJ

Did he ever mention how often those units will need to be replaced vs a steam boiler every 30 years?

I control the temperature in my rooms via TRVs. Most of house is 71F. One bedroom is 66, one is 68.

JimmyNJ

Going back to the original question about steam systems. NJ has a good amount of steam heated homes, especially in many of the older towns that have houses from the early 1900s. My house was built in 1937 with steam heat, originally powered with coal burning boiler - which is probably why my system did not have any main vents (which I figured out was "bad" a year or so ago when I got interested in optimizing my system found this wonderful site). I got to say though, that I'm a sucker for steam heat and will not consider changing it - quite the opposite, we put on an addition to the original house a couple of years ago and I made the very, very stupid decision (I wish I had known about this site back then & had more knowledge about steam heat and how to measure EDR's of radiators, etc) to just put in HVAC for the 2 story addition due to wanting to keep costs down (penny wise - pound foolish) Ended up with very uneven heating due to the fact that the house was split vertically when it came to heat, which I fixed about 6 months later when I had a radiator put in in the new family room -- now every room in the house has wonderful steam heat...with the exception of our master suite, and my goal there is to see about feasibility to get a radiator in the bedroom and the bath (according to my calculations the boiler should be able to handle the EDR needed). Again, I'm probably in the minority (weirdo like @Fred and @ChrisJ?) but I'm spending the money for my own comfort & likes - not necessarily thinking if I will ever "get back" what I put in.

Fred

@JimmyNJ You will get back what you put in! Everything is not always measured in monitary value. Personal satisfaction and comfort are worth every penny we spend during the short time we have here. Do what makes you feel good as long as it is safe, kind, and considerate of others. I have tried to live my life by those rules and, although we can all do better sometimes, steam is in my blood!

j a_2

Most calls, sadly enough come from owners who recently had there steam boiler replaced….30 seconds and one question into the phone call…i generally tell them, short of repiping there is nothing we can do….For those of us out here in the field, hands on, we see it almost every day…It is very sad..., Most plumbers/heating guys would rather do work people want done as opposed to work they need done ,because some knucklehead screwed up…..worst yet,your own callbacks…it happens…. Our work has been mostly in the Boston/south area….Lots and lots of steam systems….Brookline is a very interesting place….all kinds of steam systems…Single pipe, two pipe, vapor, sometimes all mixed in one….Most fun,a 6 unit condo,with 6 different owners, mostly young up and coming professionals..some who like it hot some who like it cool…some who will never like anything…I still love it

jumper

For more than two floors hot air is problematic.Hot water can have problems as well. I agree that home owners buy into false economy.
>>Re. steam specialists, good ones seem to stay with commercial and won't go into residential. Residential customers are abusive while in commercial you are dealing with building engineers who may be more proficient.<<

Tim McElwain

Here in Rhode Island lots of steam and still working great, can't beat it especially with powerpile. Do not have to worry about power failures!

Mad Dog_2

Here in NYC, Westchester, much of NYS and The Isle of Long....we have TONS of working steam systems. Simply put, any town with houses built before WWll, are usually Steam. Mad Dog

Fred

Ohio has bunches!

BoattailBu

rpapagolos said:

BoattailBu said:

I'm in Rhode Island and there is still a fair amount of steam particularly in the areas around where most of the mills were. Providence, Pawtucket, Central Falls. Basically, all the oldest, industrial parts of the state.

I'm also in Rhode Island, Blackstone Valley full of steam. I just replaced my 40 year old boiler. I'm now trying to balance the system. I'm still learning and I haven't discovered what I need to learn. Put another way "I don't know what I don't know". I was advised by every one I know to replace my steam with a better system "Like baseboard or forced hot air" I gave up trying to convince people that steam heat was a very good system.

Pssh...I still heat with coal. If I ever do fire up the dino juice, I use my T87 mercury thermostat.

You'll get both of those when you pry them from my comfortably warm, dead hands.

ChrisJ

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The ONLY reason steam systems ever get torn out is due to ignorance.




Steam is very simple and works incredibly well. The problem is it follows different rules. Hot water systems are constantly plagued by needing to be bled and failing expansion tanks and pumps. They also become a nitemare if anything ever freezes.

Steam has none of these problems.

agurkas

ChrisJ, you realize you are using wrong memes, right? Like the guy is actually Good Guy Greg, associated with selfless acts. May want to consult a friendly Millenial :-)

ChrisJ

agurkas said:

ChrisJ, you realize you are using wrong memes, right? Like the guy is actually Good Guy Greg, associated with selfless acts. May want to consult a friendly Millenial :-)

"Wrong memes" had my scared, I thought there were multiple.
But no, I didn't know I messed that one up. Bound to happen sooner or later, right?

agurkas

ChrisJ, when you employ about 12 of those Millenials, you do end up learning new lingo and what is "hot" these days. Embrace it. You are like steam, they are air-source heat pumps run off solar panels. At some point they will take over, just hope they don't rip you out. OK, enough puns for the night :-)

agurkas

Hatterasguy, I am realistic. I don't want to go the way of dodo. I appreciate a fine mechanical watch and I have a bunch, but I also realize connected wearables are next gen and got a few. I love one of my cars with that big V8 that eats my tires like I eat bacon, but I know I should learn to love Tesla, because it will be cheaper to put miles on that some day. I also know my steam system lasted since '38, but I also can calculate ROI and have to leave nostalgia to one or two things in my life I really like (in this case muscle cars and watches).
And those 12 Millenials I am thankful to every day, they are more gifted than me and I am lucky to have them come back and work for us every day.

bconstant

vaporvac

Whatever the reference point, they were still totally funny!

brandonf

Old thread but ill attest there's plenty of steam in RI. And I will keep my steam heat even when I install a Unico system for A/C.
It will cost some money but in the future when I build a house I will install a steam system. Call me crazy all you want...😎