The most steam systems in Massachsetts? New England?

Ross_24

Was wondering this today. From the pros in Massachusetts, what towns and cities hold the largest "pockets" of homes with steam heat? To expand it out a bit more, what about in New England?

nicholas bonham-carter

We would like to know about steam in the rest of the country as well.--NBC

Ross_24

Bump... No interest?

vaporvac

I'm not a pro, but there is ALOT of steam in Cincinnati and Ohio in general. Unfortunately, most of the heating companies just want to rip it out or convert it to hot water, and if they are willing to work on it don't always know what they're doing. The owners or their retired Dad's generally understand, but the knowledge doesn't seem to be passed on to the other help.

Fred

vaporvac said:

I'm not a pro, but there is ALOT of steam in Cincinnati and Ohio in general. Unfortunately, most of the heating companies just want to rip it out or convert it to hot water, and if they are willing to work on it don't always know what they're doing. The owners or their retired Dad's generally understand, but the knowledge doesn't seem to be passed on to the other help.

Hey Vaporvac, I'm just up the road from you in Dayton. Small world!

vaporvac

See! You just proved my point! You're lucky as you have a terrific steam guy in Dayton. He helped with my burnerslast year, but it's still a long trip for a call-back. We'll have to compare systems if you're ever in the area. (Let me clean up my boiler room first!).

Fred

vaporvac said:

See! You just proved my point! You're lucky as you have a terrific steam guy in Dayton. He helped with my burnerslast year, but it's still a long trip for a call-back. We'll have to compare systems if you're ever in the area. (Let me clean up my boiler room first!).

Lol. You'll have to tell me who that Steam Guy is. I have done my own work for so many years i had no clue there was someone local that could be trusted with my steam.

BobC

I'm not a contractor but I can tell you there was a lot of steam in the Quincy, Milton, Boston area, many have sadly been replaced by hot air when the houses undergo a gut rehab.

Bob

Double D

I am a contractor in Buffalo NY and there is a lot of steam out here. No different here BobC, houses that go through gut rehab have their steam systems removed and replaced with forced air.

Steamhead

BobC said:

many have sadly been replaced by hot air when the houses undergo a gut rehab

Double D said:

No different here BobC, houses that go through gut rehab have their steam systems removed and replaced with forced air.

You can't fix stupid!

Still plenty of steam here in Baltimore- Gordo and I had just our best year since we started our company.

Double D

I do manage to save one once in a while.

AnnieT

The Pioneer Valley of western MA, Holyoke, Springfield, Greenfield and Northampton have steam heat. Since becoming interested in steam heat to better understand my mom's one-pipe steam heat system, I see radiators everywhere in these buildings. Informal survey of workers/owners in businesses where there is steam heat say they don't work at all or the radiators give off too much heat, so they have to keep a window open. There is a mix of two pipe and single pipe systems. One gorgeous radiator that had been powder epoxy painted terra cotta one side and metal on the other, was just sitting dormant for show in a business. What a shame. That business had baseboard heat, yikes!, if they only knew how much $$ they'd be saving if they had kept their steam heat system. I want that radiator!

agurkas

Having bought a house in Boston area several months ago and having seen whole bunch of them, I can say (using my highly non-scientific method) that single family detached was built before 50s - easily 3 out of 4 steam. Oil heat dominated by steam. Duplexes, or 2-3 family condos, 1st floor often steam, 2nd and/or 3rd forced air.
Lots of hot water baseboards in 70s and 80s remodels.
That is just what I saw in the houses I have seen.

Ross_24

Wish there was some way we could make a steam "heat map" across the state... or country. Similar to this:

ChicagoCooperator

Chicago was predominantly steam, however after about 1960 new construction (single-family) had forced air - lots of radiant and hot water from 1946-65 or so too. Lots of forced air systems have been installed in condo conversions (for those of you on the east coast, it works a bit differently here, renters don't get to stay when buildings are converted, unless they buy their unit and generally, in the past 20 years, they are gut rehabs).

DairyGodmother

I lived in Stamford CT and our steam guy was plenty busy. Our neighborhood had many large homes built in the 1920s, some earlier. There is a premium on period charm here but our plumber said it was a dying system. I loved it, quirks and all.

stanzygo

I work in Western Mass. Alot of steam heat in Holyoke, and Northampton. Mainly in Holyoke. Lots of older victorian homes. With tons of people who like to take care of there boilers like they are their children! Its a great thing.

BoattailBu

I'm in Rhode Island and there is still a fair amount of steam particularly in the areas around where most of the mills were. Providence, Pawtucket, Central Falls. Basically, all the oldest, industrial parts of the state.

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

BobC said:

many have sadly been replaced by hot air when the houses undergo a gut rehab

Double D said:

No different here BobC, houses that go through gut rehab have their steam systems removed and replaced with forced air.

You can't fix stupid!

Still plenty of steam here in Baltimore- Gordo and I had just our best year since we started our company.

icesailor

BobC said:

I'm not a contractor but I can tell you there was a lot of steam in the Quincy, Milton, Boston area, many have sadly been replaced by hot air when the houses undergo a gut rehab.

Bob

Because it is CHEAP. And can provide terribly unbalanced Air Conditioning. If it's there when you go to buy it, you don't know how bad it is until you live with it.

SWEI

Hatterasguy said:

Nobody is going to keep the steam and add the a/c after the fact. Why bother?

Really?

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

No, not because it is cheap.............

Because they all want a/c. Once you install a/c, the heat, effectively, comes for free.

Nobody is going to keep the steam and add the a/c after the fact. Why bother?

Well, I did. I have my beloved steam system and I added a 5 ton central air system that cools my second and third floors and a 3 ton system for my first floor and because the cost difference between air handlers and full blown furnaces was minimal, I put the furnaces in thinking I'd have backup heat if the boiler were to die in the middle of winter. It's been 24 years now. the central air units have been replaced once and the furnaces only get used to push the cool air except for two days last winter when I had a minor boiler problem that I leisurely took two days to work on.
Was it worth the money? For the Central air, most definitely. For the mental satisfaction of knowing the heat is there as backup? Most definitely. Will I replace the steam boiler when it finally givess up the ghost? Most definitely (but it may out live me).

Abracadabra

I've started seeing more people keep the steam and add in a spacepak system for a/c.

ChrisJ

I'd like to do mini-splits for A\C.

Fred

"There is something wrong with you, obviously"
LOL. Not the first time I've heard that.

vaporvac

It's spacepak in my neck of the woods. I have AC on the 1st fl. , would love it for the 2nd & 3rd especially. I think people do it cuz they don't know any better. New must be better, right? If one is gutting (God forbid) why not add spacepak or add ac and keep the steam as Fred did. It's because they don't know any better or are afraid of steam since they don't understand it.

ChrisJ

@vaporvac

JUGHNE

Fred, I don't know your location but you must have a lot of house to have 8 tons of AC?

KC_Jones

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

I'd like to do mini-splits for A\C.

ChrisJ said:

I'd like to do mini-splits for A\C.

They do make good sense.

But, folks doing a gut rehab, which was the premise of the argument, have a difficult time justifying keeping the steam..............just because..............

It's for comfort not "just because", but they are probably being led by a contractor that doesn't know any different not explaining to them how comfortable it can be. I grew up with forced hot air and honestly I can't even conceive comparing the 2 when it comes to comfort.

Fred

JUGHNE said:

Fred, I don't know your location but you must have a lot of house to have 8 tons of AC?

@JUGHNE It's 5000 sq. ft + unfinished basement. I like it @ 68 from May till October. I'm in Ohio. Summers are very humid. That's a pic of my house next to my name.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

KC_Jones said:

It's for comfort not "just because", but they are probably being led by a contractor that doesn't know any different not explaining to them how comfortable it can be. I grew up with forced hot air and honestly I can't even conceive comparing the 2 when it comes to comfort.

Seriously, if you would suspend your bias for just one minute.............


We've seen steam systems that are the epitome of a disaster and won't heat the house on a bet.

We've also got some perfect steam systems that heat with less than 4 ounces.

Forced air is no different. Design it with sufficient sized ductwork (done in 10% of the installs), add a whole house humidifier, put in proper outlets and returns, and forced air can be excellent.

Don't use your data point of one or two to condemn the entire concept.

When forced air is done properly, it's no different than baseboard. I grant you that you don't get any radiation that radiators provide. Very few folks would spend $2X to get central a/c and a steam system.

Forced air cannot be excellent even in a very well insulated home. Heating air is a poor way to warm a room. In my opinion, IR is far superior.

No matter what, it's an instant off system. As soon as the heat shuts off, you will feel slightly cooler than when it's on.

My dad built a house and framed the outside walls using 2x6s. It has some of the best insulation you can find along with Anderson 400 windows. His forced hot air system I tried to make him change his mind on was installed correctly as well. When I checked, we came up with 4 btus per sqft per HDD for his house.

Even with the VP8000 set to 6 cph I notice changes. Hot, cold, hot,cold,hot,cold.

Happiness is a warm radiator.

agurkas

To be very honest with you and I hope you don't lynch me for this, I am not investing any more money into my steam system beyond what I can fix myself.
Now that I have a house with forced air (newer addition) and original part with steam (just converted from oil to gas) and mini-splits covering the steam heated areas, considering the cost estimates I got for re-doing all those years of different steam technicians adding and removing rads from the system including sub-optimal near boiler piping, it just does not make sense.
I have made enough fixes to where I no longer have water hammer, rooms I care about heat well (sometimes too well). System is stable.

Going to invest that money in super-insulating the house (doing 2nd wall) and air-sealing the roof. Steam is just too powerful and has way too much inertia. Does not make sense to boil all that water to heat 3-4 rads, like I already do.

Plus, real steam pros are rare and $$$. New generation is not learning, old masters are dying out. 10-15 years and there will be major shortage of people who get how to maintain steam.

rpapagolos

BoattailBu said:

I'm in Rhode Island and there is still a fair amount of steam particularly in the areas around where most of the mills were. Providence, Pawtucket, Central Falls. Basically, all the oldest, industrial parts of the state.

I'm also in Rhode Island, Blackstone Valley full of steam. I just replaced my 40 year old boiler. I'm now trying to balance the system. I'm still learning and I haven't discovered what I need to learn. Put another way "I don't know what I don't know". I was advised by every one I know to replace my steam with a better system "Like baseboard or forced hot air" I gave up trying to convince people that steam heat was a very good system.

ChrisJ

agurkas said:

To be very honest with you and I hope you don't lynch me for this, I am not investing any more money into my steam system beyond what I can fix myself.
Now that I have a house with forced air (newer addition) and original part with steam (just converted from oil to gas) and mini-splits covering the steam heated areas, considering the cost estimates I got for re-doing all those years of different steam technicians adding and removing rads from the system including sub-optimal near boiler piping, it just does not make sense.

Going to invest that money in super-insulating the house (doing 2nd wall) and air-sealing the roof. Steam is just too powerful and has way too much inertia. Does not make sense to boil all that water to heat 3-4 rads, like I already do.

Plus, real steam pros are rare and $$$. New generation is not learning, old masters are dying out. 10-15 years and there will be major shortage of people who get how to maintain steam.

SWEI

When forced air is done properly -- it's expensive.

Properly sized, installed, sealed, and insulated supply and return ducts to every room. Now buy a modulating furnace with constant pressure-controlled ECM VS blower along with a bunch of zone dampers and controls.

Multi-head inverter-driven heatpumps add up pretty fast, too.

agurkas

ChrisJ,
Getting $560 gas bill two months in the row at $1.5 per therm, which I know will not last and will go up, is big driver of the decision. Discovering what I did with state of steam pros around me put a final nail in that coffin.
It is kind of like mechanics who can do good job on carb engines - hard to find and you only find out if they are good when you already paid the bill.

ChrisJ

Hmm.

ChrisJ

agurkas said:

ChrisJ,
Getting $560 gas bill two months in the row at $1.5 per therm, which I know will not last and will go up, is big driver of the decision. Discovering what I did with state of steam pros around me put a final nail in that coffin.
It is kind of like mechanics who can do good job on carb engines - hard to find and you only find out if they are good when you already paid the bill.

How big is the house and how much did it change with the new system(s)?

Your comment "Steam is just too powerful and has way too much inertia" doesn't make sense.

agurkas

I got 3k sq ft, but heating 2/3 at best, if not half. Re inertia, when you got from R3 walls to R25 and much much tighter house, steam system becomes way oversized. No?

ChrisJ

agurkas said:

I got 3k sq ft, but heating 2/3 at best, if not half. Re inertia, when you got from R3 walls to R25 and much much tighter house, steam system becomes way oversized. No?

The steam system currently there may be, but things can be done to help if not completely fix that as well. For example vent the radiators slow and install a much smaller boiler. Not to mention, if it was mine it would be heating 100%, not 2/3s.

But, it sounds like it's way too late.


This needs to be in another thread as I don't want to derail this one.

agurkas

ChrisJ, I did get a quote for new boiler and making changes to it. About 3x what I paid for heat pumps and converting existing one. And I did tweak the heck out of what I have with all your help. Just cycling and Ecobee coupled with 6 degree offset cut my gas bill 10%. 68f when home, 62f when out. Yes, did compare to keeping at same temp.