Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
If our community has helped you, please consider making a contribution to support this website. Thanks!

Sealing an arcoliner

Options
Robert_H
Robert_H Member Posts: 354

I did a repair on an Arcoliner recently and I will be going back to do an annual service and tune up. I did a quick combustion analysis before I left and even when I had what could be called a good looking Flame there is way too much excess air. The draft in the pipe is between -.03 and - 05. I haven't tested the draft over the fire but I'll bet good money that it's higher than what I want it to be.

Right now I'm assuming the excess air is coming from the doors that are no longer fully sealing themselves. Any ideas on a removable method of sealing up around those doors? I don't want to gob them up with furnace cement and then have to chip it off every year in order to service it. What would be ideal would be a high temp stays flexible, putty. I just don't know anything like that but maybe some of you do or have another idea for me.

Comments

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,623

    Are the doors just flat to flat contact without a gasket groove?

    If so, I have gotten some almost flat or small diameter temp rated gasket and taped it in place with blue painters tape. Close the door and cut off the excess showing if you wish.

    Next time opening the gasket will probably just fall out and maybe reusable.

    Robert_H
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,324

    Sounds like the barometric draft regulator might need adjustment too.


    Bburd
    Robert_H
  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354

    Yes, flat to Flat contact just as you described. I like your idea I'm going back tomorrow

  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354

    Actually the draft regulator was laying on the floor lol. I repaired it and plan on replacing it. However on the spot I did get the draft adjusted to the readings I posted earlier. But tomorrow I will be looking at the draft over the fire. And making the proper adjustment

    bburd
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 7,611

    This is the boiler with the front double doors? Its been a long time but isn't there a groove around the perimeter of the doors for kaowool rope.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,825
    edited July 30

    Two ways:

    Red RTV hi temp silicone in a caulking tube or

    You can by Kao wool flat tape or round rope.

    I put it on by quickly wire brushing the cast iron and spray it and the rope with 3M contact cement. Let it dry and then stick the rope on

    If you have a lot of air leaking in the Co2 will be low. Draft in the flue doesn't matter much over the fire should be -.02ish. Could be leaking around the doors between the sections or into the fire box.

    Take a Co2 over the fire (don't burn up the tester). If over fire is higher Co2 than at the breech you have air leaking in.

    Robert_H
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,802

    What model Arcoliner? What burner is on it? What nozzle are you using?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 17,902

    if you do it right with the silicone you can oil or wax one of the surfaces and clean the other surface and get it to stick to one surface but not the other and make a gasket that will come away with the door.

    also look carefully at all of the other various seams and dampers and such and especially where the burner is mounted.

    I think @EBEBRATT-Ed mentioned a type of furnace cement you could chip off and mix with water and stick back on. although that really just sounds like clay.

    Robert_H
  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354
    edited July 31

    Yes, this has double front doors I didn't notice a Groove for a gasket but I will look at that when I go back. Thank you

  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354

    the label plate is rough but as best I can tell its a 0 154 7. series IBT J2. Beckett AF burner. and of course I did not make note of the nozzle

    neilc
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,802

    Should be a 4-section. Dry-base or wet-base? Hint- if the return line connects just above the floor, it's wet-base. If it connects 12-18" above the floor, it's dry-base.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

    Robert_H
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 7,611

    Even if there's no groove, small diameter kaowool rope or flat gasket. The rope can have tape adhesive but spray adhesive might be better. There's a lot of play in the hinges on those doors with not a very secure latch.

    Robert_H
  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354
    edited July 31

    Its a wet base. Had a 75-60B in it. I got better results with a 75-60A and pushing the pump pressure to 150. When It cools down, I'm going to go back and try some other nozzles. I think it will do better with and 80 degree. I was baking those four people out of their house

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,802

    If the AF has a fixed head, you may be better off with an 80° nozzle, unless the firebox is very narrow. For that firing rate, the proper fixed head is the F3.

    With the F3, if you're using a hollow (A) nozzle because the solid (B) one caused the flame to slam into the back of the firebox, you will likely get better results by switching to a larger static plate on the drawer assembly. Use the #3384:

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-3384-BECKETT-Static-Plate?srsltid=AfmBOooeVWmGGPFMO67Zi4MoH5S8mV8i9DFSrzz4Nlt0MuB_yw9q7s7v

    This will create a more hollow air pattern to match the nozzle. I sometimes gain a half percentage point on my CO2 readings with zero smoke, and get a much more stable flame, with this change.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

    bburd
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 7,611

    A Beckett AF with an F head should not be firing a 60° nozzle. 70° or 80° hollow spray up to 1.00 GPH. Assuming the chamber size and dimensions are correct. The flame is probably impinging.

    How is the burner mounted? Is it bolted to a flange or sitting on a pedestal and the air tube is cemented in place? If on a pedestal, make sure the head is 1/4" to 1/2" back from the face of the chamber. They have a tendency to walk by themselves sometimes.

    Robert_H
  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354

    I'm definately going back and starting with an 80. It is a bolted flange.

  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354

    I agree, I was starting with what was there, assuming someone did it for a good reason. I found out who was there last and unfortunately, it is someone that goes out to do 5 cleanings with 4 nozzles in their pocket. Now that Ive cleaned the old firebox out and cleaned out all the crud, its nice and wide with plenty of room for a wide flame. Thanks for the knowledge on the head and static plate selection. I realy appreciate it.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,825

    The best nozzle is the one that combustion tests the best.

    Robert_H
  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354
    edited August 5

    I just want to follow up with what I did on this boiler.

    Sealed both upper doors with high temp RTV on the flange and a light coating of oil on the door, as suggested.

    Sealed around the burner door with gasket material and furnace cement. Replaced the burner flange gasket.

    Tried a few different nozzles and got the best results with an 85-80A.

    MFR

    Arcoliner

    model

    0 154 T

    Burner

    Beckett AF

    nozzle

    85-80A

    Pump Pres

    150

    Firing Rate

    = 1.04

    Draft Breach

    -0.04

    Draft OF

    -0.02

    Tstack

    502

    O2

    7.6

    CO

    49

    CO AF

    = 77

    EFF

    81

    ExAir

    53

    CO2

    10

    AT

    73

    Net Stack

    429

    Smoke

    Trace - 1

    Thanks again for all the help!

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,825

    #s are not too bad. Probably does have some air leaking in. You can only do so much.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,802
    edited August 5

    Not bad, @Robert_H . But a "trace" of smoke is still smoke. We need to get to zero smoke, which the AF was designed to do. Then there will be little if any cleaning to do next year, and the customer will love you.

    The stack temp is higher than it should be. You might try placing a standard brick in each flueway (behind the upper door) to slow down the hot flue gases and make them wipe the cast-iron better, as they did during World War II when oil was rationed. Remember, the Arcoliner was designed for coal as well as oil, and that required larger flueways than oil does. Make sure you still have a good over-fire draft with the bricks in place.

    And try changing the static plate as I mentioned earlier. You can get by with less excess air if the air pattern more closely matches the nozzle.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

    HVACNUTRobert_H
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 7,611

    Only zero smoke is acceptable. What are the chamber dimensions? What head is on the burner? That boiler is easy enough to clean. Is it clean?

  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354
    edited August 5

    that is a Trace minus one, meaning -1% CO2. That's the way I annotate it in the app for my analyzer. Sorry for the confusion . And I did note all your previous recommendations and I will be experimenting with baffles in the heat exchanger when the heating season comes around.

  • Robert_H
    Robert_H Member Posts: 354

    It'sIt's a zero-1. Meaning 0 - 1% CO2. That's the way I annotate it in my analyzer app. Sorry for the confusion. Yes the boiler is clean

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,802

    Ahhh. That's how I do it- find the point at which you get a trace of smoke, add a bit of air to get to zero, then drop one percentage point to leave enough headroom to get you through the season while staying at zero. When you do that, there will be little if any cleaning to do next year.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,825

    I think a 429 net stack is not bad.

    Robert_HEdTheHeaterMan
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,802

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

    Robert_HEdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,657

    When I worked for the family business in the 1980s, we were replacing ten or more oil burners each week. The federal government subsidized many of these jobs for low-income homeowners.

    We often retrofitted old “snowman” boilers, Arcoliner boilers, Holland furnaces, and even boilers originally designed for coal that had been sold as oil-fired units in the 1940s and 50s. Some were equipped with Arcoflame burners using the old piggyback-style burner motor and fuel pump.

    Many of these boilers had air leaks between the sections. To receive payment under the government program, we had to achieve at least 80% combustion efficiency using a Bacharach wet-kit combustion kit. We developed a procedure that helped us obtain an accurate measurement.

    First, we would:

    1. Thoroughly clean the heat exchanger and remove as much soot as possible.
    2. Install a new combustion chamber.
    3. Remove the boiler jacket and seal the seams between the sections with furnace cement.
    4. Install new insulation and replace the jacket.
    5. Seal the boiler doors to eliminate air leakage. We would place a 1/4- to 3/8-inch bead of furnace cement around each door and carefully close it, allowing the cement to form a gasket-like seal.
    6. Install a new vent connector and barometric draft regulator.

    Even after completing all this careful sealing, some air leakage could still remain. A combustion-efficiency calculation assumes that all combustion air enters through the burner and that only this air is included in the flue-gas sample taken at the vent connector as shown on the left. If we had too many leaks as shown on the right the flue gas measurement was incorrect and much lower carbon-dioxide percentage.

    image.png

    Because that was not always possible to get an air-leak free boiler, we used a temporary testing method to determine the actual flame efficiency without dilution air from the remaining section leaks. For the test only, we operated the burner with slight positive pressure in the combustion chamber. If the boiler still had leaks, the airflow would then move outward through them instead of being drawn inward and diluting the flue-gas sample.

    We accomplished this by temporarily removing the barometric draft regulator or propping it open and/or partially restricting the chimney connector. Once we obtained approximately +0.01 inches water column over-fire pressure, we performed the combustion test and recorded the actual carbon dioxide or oxygen reading and the stack temperature.

    Immediately after completing the test, we restored the vent connector to its normal, unrestricted operating condition and returned the barometric draft regulator to proper operation. The final operating draft would normally be approximately –0.01 to –0.02 inches water column over the fire.

    This procedure gave us a more accurate measurement of the burner’s actual flame combustion efficiency. Any air entering through small remaining leaks during normal negative-draft operation would lower the measured combustion-efficiency result, but it would not significantly change the flame inside the combustion chamber. The heat produced by that flame would still be absorbed by the boiler, with only a relatively small efficiency loss resulting from the remaining air leakage.

    Government inspectors simply needed to witness an actual combustion test showing an efficiency reading of 80% or higher on the instruments and calculator before signing off on the job. Once the test was completed and the system was restored to its normal operating condition, we made sure the equipment would operate safely. Our own service technician would then sign off on the job. With both signatures in place, the U.S. Treasury checks would start rolling in.

    The bottom line was that we took a system operating at 60% combustion efficiency or less, equipped with an old, wasteful burner, and made it burn less fuel while still providing all the comfort the homeowner needed. The work cost less than half as much as installing a new gas boiler and often produced similar fuel savings. At the same time, we were able to keep a fuel-oil customer from converting to gas heat.

    I hope this information helps you in determining the result of your work. Your combustion numbers don't need to be as high as you think to get the lowest fuel usage

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    bburdRobert_H
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,825

    The old way with the wet kit was to take a Co2 in the breeching and take one over the fire. If the OTF was a better Co2 you had air leaking in.

    If I remember right this was in Burkhardt's book.

    Since the OP has-.04 in the breeching and -.02 otf you can't do much with bricks or baffles or you might get short on draft.

    Depending on the load on the boiler he may be able to lower the nozzle 1 size to.75 which would lower the stack temp and get better combustion with longer run time

    EdTheHeaterManRobert_H
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 17,902

    of course that many of those original materials were ACMs wasn't considered a problem then(also possibly some of the new materials you were using, it seems like a lot of products through the 90's or so they didn't remove the asbestos they just stopped mentioning it, or they made liberal use of the rule that products containing less than 1% asbestos were not ACMs). i'm pretty sure i've got asbestos gaskets in gasket sets long after they should have gone away.

    Robert_H