Is there any way to add a float valve to a Big Mouth vent?
A few years ago a contractor replaced my Gorton 2 main with a Big Mouth. Naturally, some time after that was an incident where the system flooded and water came pouring out of that valve! (More contractors)
Since the valve has a threaded 3/4-in exhaust port, I was wondering if there was some sort of float valve that could be mounted onto it? If not I might go back to the Gorton.
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find out how water got that high?
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The last time It was Moe, Larry and Curly changing the flue liner and accidentally flipped open the fill valve. I have since removed that handle. Another time it was a confused tenant trying to be helpful.
I consider the float valves like seat belts, a safety measure that you hope you never need but wouldn't like to do without.
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The float valve IS the breaker in this analogy! You're advocating doing without breakers and just don't overload or short circuit.
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@ethicalpaul said the floats don't actually float.
If that's the case...
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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no I’m not
Fix the problem!
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Yeah the “float” in the #1 definitely sinks like a stone. I haven’t opened a #2 to test it but if someone sends me a broke one I will.
Gorton almost never calls it a float (but I think I caught them saying at one place deep in their web site).
NJ Steam Homeowner.
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Isn't that the discussion where I posted a video showing the float in a Jacobus working just fine? I have the pulled Gorton 2 sitting right in front of me, maybe I'll do a video of that too.
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maybe, my memory is garbage. I might have to amend to say “they can work but they don’t float” 😅
NJ Steam Homeowner.
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
so if someone **** off the emergency switch you’ll bypass it?
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Don't know if this will work for you but you could run some PVC like 1 1/4" to a drain from the trap location. Then pipe 3/4" into the pvc but leave an air gap.
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Thanks, I was thinking of something like that. But would be real SOB getting that pipe to a drain.
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Huh. Seems pretty interesting! I'm trying to wrap my head around using the low water cutoff to de-energize the zone valve. It does make sense. But then, so does two Gorton 2's, and a lot less complicated.
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Sounds like you answered your own question 🤣🤪
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My bet is the 'Float' in a Gorton 2 will NOT close the valve, not enough trapped air for the weight involved.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
I won't bet on this after seeing the video mentioned above (that I had forgotten about). But my question is, would you rather have the water falling on your basement floor, or would you rather the main vent closed and the water continued filling up the whole system and shooting out of (probably multiple) radiator vents?
I guess the radiator vents spewing water would be easier to notice, provided someone was home at the time but for me, I'd rather my basement floor got wet.NJ Steam Homeowner.
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el2 -
Well, the main is behind the wall of a basement apartment, so it's not without consequence.
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I'm not at all sure there is a good answer to this one. I do know that a Gorton #2 will shut off on high water — or at least the one on the system Cedric powers will — as it has done so, once when the autofeeder went loopy and overfilled the system.
That, however, does not really answer the fundamental problem, which is how does one protect a system from overfilling. Keeping the autofeeder, if you have one, in good shape and operating properly is more or less obvious — but so long as there is the possibility of a manual feed, someone, sometime, is going to overfill the system — as in the OP's case. You can keep it from running in an overfill condition — the pressure controls should do that. But preventing the condition? Hmm…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England3 -
Maybe a redundant water feeder?
I'd still go with the Gorton.
Baltimore, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
Well there’s your problem! 😉
NJ Steam Homeowner.
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Well, there's the setup @Danny Scully linked. About $400 in gear, and I can't see where they placed the sensor. In a tee off the return somewhere presumably.
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Unless the widget can positively shut off the errant automatic feeder, or close a valve that got left open somehow… is it going to do what's needed?
Better have it arranged to activate a LOUD alarm.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
you could pipe the vent outlet to someplace more convenient. vinyl tubing would probably be ok, just make sur it is sloped so it doesn't trap any water that does burp out of it
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Unfortunately from the vent location it would have to go UP into the joist bay to traverse to where a drain is available, potentially creating a trap. It's not an easy path, I can barely get NM cables through, but maybe 1" vinyl would actually do. Or even just a chunk of 5/8 garden hose! That would make the fittings convenient.
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you could go up if you dripped it to a wet return but that is starting to get complicated. you could move the vent itself but the pipe to the vent would have to be able to drain back to the main.
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I suspect the sensor is behind the LWCO unit in the pipe, like it typically is. The 'High Water Cut Off' in the video is physically above the boiler, above the header, where water should not be.
You could also use an additional Pressuretrol (normal location) with a SPDT switch. Water head pressure, 2.31 feet of vertical water height, you get 1 PSI of pressure or 0.43 PDI per foot. Use the N.O. section of the switch so when the pressure increases it closes the switch and closes a Normally Open zone valve.
You could get creative with the existing Pressuretrol wiring so on a pressure rise that shuts off the burner it also removes the power to a Normally Closed Zone Valve that is wire up so it only opens during a low water event. Basically redundant water valves with independent control, one low water, the other pressure too high (water height).
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
@ethicalpaul Video? "I won't bet on this after seeing the video mentioned above (that I had forgotten about)."
I just see the @Danny Scully video and I don't recall any mention of a Gorton # 2 performance in it. I saw your video a while back.
And even if the Gorton # 2 actually closes, how well does it remain closed as the head pressure increases.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
i don't think you want to shut off the water feed based on pressure. if the controls run away you want it to keep feeding water to absorb the energy from the burner. it is kind of where the relief valve becomes the last ditch effort safety. if the relief valve is blowing off and the water feeder is trying to replace the low water level it is likely to keep a burner with a stuck gas valve or stuck relay or other stuck safety in control enough to keep it from burning the building down
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Well if you are worried about stuck gas valves on an otherwise normal system, you need redundant gas valves too.
For example my boiler will shut the burner off if the Pressuretrol trips on pressure, like over filling the water in the system. Since in my case the water is manual fill and if the gas valve sticks for days or weeks and eventually uses up all the water in the system, well maybe there should be a thermal shut down on the gas supply too.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
it could be a couple hours if the boiler is voersized as most are.
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I guess you better start writing building / plumbing / boiler code. Oversized boiler, you MUST have an auto water feeder, and no grandfathering in the old stuff.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
@Danny Scully, you seemed disappointed that folks at the time of the original post (2019) and other later posts did not seem very interested in the High Water Cut Off.
Personally I like the idea. I think where it falls short, is if you are not going to market it as a kit, explain it in more detail (and maybe I missed it). If folks better understood how to implement it, it may get more interest.
Why you chose that LWCO.
Why you chose that Zone valve.
How you wired the LWCO to the zone valve, is it an automatons system or does it interlock with the boiler's other wiring.
More details on how it works. Why you chose that height in the system instead of lower. If folks are confused and can't build it they are not going to use it, even if it is a great idea.
Some folks may get discouraged if they have to figure it out for themselves.
From another post;
" Just to be clear, it looks like you're using a regular low-water cutoff
and a Taco "Zone Sentry" valve - the "normally open" type. So if the low
water cutoff actually turns on - i.e. there *IS* water - then the Taco
valve shuts off. And it looks like you rigged that up to the same set
pipes on the side of the boiler where you've got the pressure gauge -
yes? Not familiar enough with the boiler internals to know, but doesn't
steam come out of the hose when the boiler's heating? "National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0
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