Well... we gotta leak.

Tom_133 · May 13

Sooo, I installed a 4" copper main on a very large building, and because I had a minor lapse in judgement I decided to solder it. No need to say it, I wont do it again. Next time it will be press, or victaulic, or welded, but not soldering over 3" ever again. It's not that we are not capable, just read on.

I pressure tested it and it held the 100lbs like a champ. Then after one winter it sprang a leak. I get it, I understand it, no need to explain why it happens, or what I did wrong I am very sorry and again I wont repeat this mistake.

Now, the question is with a tight space, and 4" fittings, has anyone successfully pulled apart, cleaned, refluxed and soldered successfully? I can get it pretty dry and I wont do this until June so I got all day to repair, but want to get it right. I would be happy to get the right torch head if anyone has suggestions on that as well. Out of the 20+ joints we got one weeper, well two if you include me.

Thanks

Tom

pecmsg · May 13

Pro Press.

hot_rod · May 13

on large sizes like that you can pre-tin the tube and fitting. Basically wiping solder around the pipe and fitting first, then assemble.

If it is no too close to other fittings you could silver solder over the fitting.
Blockade is a good rod for that use.

pumpcontrolguy · May 13

Most of our copper work is in 2-4" and we never sweat anymore unless a property specifically wants it. You need a lot of heat for 4", so we would typically do two torches at once, one on each side. There are fancy round pipe torches, but we never had those.

Steamhead · May 13

Maybe rent one of those fancy round torches?

Mad Dog_2 · May 13

Without re-soldering it, I would silver braze right over it. As long as you're not going to burn anything next to it, its the fastest, easiest fix here. Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2 · May 13

Do you have a photo of the joint and situation? What's also great about silver brazing is that you can drill a small hole at 90 degree 6 o clock position and drain any residual standing water. That hole will be the last part you will braze close. Also, you don't need a Large Rosebud tip or Oxy-Acetylene on 4" Copper. A large Turbotorch tip and a Full B Tank and youre good to go. Mad Dog

Tom_133 · May 13

no pics yet. But man I appreciate the help. I may just braze it up!

Mad Dog_2 · May 13

DM me or call if you need any tips. I've been in your shoes many times and silver-brazed up to 12" Pipe. 516-322-2881

pedmec · May 13

Cut it out and propress. You wont regret it. When you get done your gonna wonder why you didn't propress it to start.

And yes, i have taken plenty of sweat fittings apart, cleaned them, and resoldered successfully. But i wouldn't do it anymore because of propress. Propress is just to simple. The problem with large size sweat fittings is sometimes the interference fit is a little to large to hold the solder. If not properly aligned the gap is larger on one side than the other. Tinning definitely helps but its and added process the adds labor. Add that all up and a propress fitting doesn't seem that expensive anymore. Priced right and the customer is paying for it anyway.

Good luck

mattmia2 · May 13

the cost of the solder that goes in to a joint that size isn't trivial either.

RascalOrnery · May 13

What the blazes is 4" copper used for? Water supply for the whole town?

mattmia2 · May 13

larger commercial building especially if it has a lot of bathrooms with flushometers. most of our campus buildings have 4" supply or more.

Mad Dog_2 · May 13

This is a callback, correct? You're already in the Red. A 4 inch Press Tool and fittings are big bucks. If you want out of there, for the cost 3 or 4 sticks of Silver Solder and some acetylene, you can move on. Mad Dog

EBEBRATT-Ed · May 13

Since it lasted a year do you think you could have an expansion issue? How long of a run is it? Subjected to temperature swings?

If you silver solder or braze it you don't have to pull it apart.

If you propress your going to need an elbow which may be all you need if you sawzall though the 4" sweat 90 and unsweat and wipe the solder off both ends of the pipe and maybe trim some off as the PP90 is long radius.

Thats assuming you can move the pipe that much. Otherwise you going to need a 4" coupling or two.

I had the same situation except it was a 4" main in a insurance building that feed 2 3" lines at the end of the run.

It was all propress. I didn't install it but I was the one that had to fix the only leak. Had to waste out 1 3" 90 and 2 3" 45s

You or anyone can have a leak no matter what method you use.

Victaulic is expensive especially for copper and you will find the fittings are hard to find.

mattmia2 · May 13

at 4" cast iron probably will not scale enough to restrict the flow so that is also an option.

mattmia2 · May 13

looks like propress and vitaulic are about the same price once you buy all the clamps although vitaulic is reversable.

Tom_133 · May 14

There are 3- 400k boilers lined up feeding a building with a 3" header, they wanted room for future indirects on it so we added the two tees on either side of the closely spaced tees. So there are not that many joints.

I know we dont discuss pricing, so I wont get to deep into that but press isn't scaring me, I own all the tooling. The stupid insulation cost me a pretty penny and HATE the idea of paying for that again. I am going to go put my eyes on it and will probably consider brazing all the 20 joints.

These are good customers, so it's possible they dont want a future worry, so it may get pressed and I may just do the labor for free.

Mad Dog_2 · May 14

Tom. Have a little faith in yourself. Its highly unlikely you'll have another leak like that from your soldered joints. It would've happened already. Mad Dog

hot_rod · May 14

Oe time I had to solder over some joints on 4" copper in a year old hotel! It was the got piping and I think the expansion/ contraction caused the leaks.

I used a rosebud tip but with oxygen/ acetylene, which heated very quickly.

But if you have the press equipment or can borrow the large jaw fro a wholesaler, go that route and be done quickly.

Tom_133 · May 14

Thanks again all!

Well... we gotta leak.

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