Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
If our community has helped you, please consider making a contribution to support this website. Thanks!

Back-up/supplemental heat

Options
2»

Comments

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,391

    I didn't say "poor insulation," I said "poorly insulated."

    I'm in Washington, DC. There are lots of houses built in the 19th century, almost all of them are poorly insulated. The winter design temperature is 21F. Every few years we get a cold snap in the single digits, pipes are freezing all over town when that happens.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,732

    it depends on the exact model of baseboard but most permanent baseboard electric heat has an accessory thermostat that can be installed in the junction box. usually they are installed with the power passing through a wall box with a thermostat but most can have a thermostat directly on the baseboard unit.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,713

    When you buy standard baseboard heaters most wire them to a wall mounted stat.

    But they (the same BB manufacture) will sell thermostats that mount directly on the baseboard.

    They are simple thing usually with just #s on them. A bit inconvenient to have to bend over to adjust the temp

  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 70

    so after all of this discussion, I have decided to duct tape the problem for this winter and take @EBEBRATT-Ed advise on electric space heaters. I found 1500watt electric ceramic heaters on sale for $33 each and bought six of them. My math says that will give me nearly 31,000 BTU’s. My plan is to locate them throughout the house, each on separate/unused circuits, prior to leaving this winter for a couple of months. If the heat goes down, my house monitor can just turn them all on and contact a repair person. In addition I am also going to use 3 of them in my great room the next cold snap and see the effect of adding an additional 15,000 BTU’s to the room does.

    I will sleep better knowing the $200 I just spent on heaters, could possibly prevent a serious problem with frozen water pipes while waiting to get the system back up and running while I’m away.

    This also gives me plenty of time to figure out what’s next for a more permanent solution in needing additional BTU’s in my great room and a backup heat source.

    hot_rod
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,252

    If I were you I would cut the original molded plugs off every one of those heaters and put on industrial grade plugs that are much less likely to overheat.

    Portable space heaters are really not meant to be used unattended, and that is cheap insurance against the plugs melting down (I have seen this happen) and catching fire.


    Bburd
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,732

    i am really far more concerned about the 30 cent receptacle that is push backwired than the crimp on to the cord. if it is made with good tooling the crimp connection is fine.

  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,252

    You raise a good point about the receptacle itself; but I have seen the difference more than once in the running temperature of plugs on space heaters and in one case a 120 V clothes dryer after the original molded plug was replaced with an industrial grade plug with solid screw terminals.


    Bburd
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,732

    they usually use 16 awg hpn for the cord and use the 90c rating of the cord to get the needed ampacity for the space heater while the receptacle is usually required to be considered 60c by various decrees in the code so that is kind of a problem (although the receptacles are usually actually rated 75 c or 90c by the manufacturer). the temp you have to use for the ampacity calculations is the lowest of the terminations of that wire.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,715

    If he has 20 A circuits, as noted they should have 20 amp receptacles, which would handle those heaters easily

    IMG_1743.jpeg
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,732

    20a general purpose receptacle circuits are not required to have 20 a receptacles unless there is a single receptacle on the circuit. if i remember right the terminals and bridging tab on 15 a receptacle are rated for 20a specifically for this reason although as of around 20 years ago you are no longer allowed to bridge 20a branch circuits through a device.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,245

    @mattmia2 that may still be true, but in my house, receptacles fed by 20A circuits get 20A receptacles. That way I can tell by looking at the receptacle how much current is available in that circuit.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    hot_rod
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,732

    the only time you need a 20 a receptacle is if you have utilization equipment that uses over 1500w and has a 5-20p or 2-20p plug.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,715

    You can have all the 20 A circuits you have ability to provide from the breaker panel

    I don’t think the code requires 15A plug circuits?

    Kitchens have 20A, every circuit in my shop is 20 except lights

    I think the OP suggested he had 20A circuits throughout his rooms?

    If he has 20A circuits and receptacles and follows @Steamhead suggestion to upgrade the cord caps, that should provide piece of mind

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,732
    edited January 3

    there is nothing that prohibits you from using a 5-20r on a 20 a circuit but in most cases they aren't required. i suspect that other than the shape of one of the contacts, there is little difference between a spec grad 5-15r and 5-20r.

  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 70

    I wired the house when it was built in 2002. All receptacle runs were 12-2 with 20 amp receptacles and all were individually pigtail feed and screw connected and not pushed in. I also installed a 200 amp house service and may have over killed receptacle circuits with many rooms with 2 or 3 circuits particularly my kitchen, which I think there 5 or 6. I spent most of my life’s work as a industrial electrical maintenance person, though not a licensed electrician.

    I am not intending the 1500 watt heaters to be anything other than a emergency back-up in the event of the main heating system going down and stop gap until my son-in law can get a tech into make repairs while I’m away.

    Being on 24 hr call my whole working life I know extremely well how frequent emergency situations can happen and if the temps were -20*f and boiler goes down, its an emergency. Knowing that if its a power outage I have a 5kw ready as well as a 3kw Honda generator and then 30k BTU’s of portable back-up heat, I will sleep better while away. I also know its not 100% fool proof.

    hot_rod
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 4,181

    No need to have the HA worry about them, just set their internal thermostat lower than the heating thermostat. One less point of failure (I'm suspicious of HA), and only the places that need heat get it.

  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 70

    If I understand your comments correctly, you are suggesting leaving the portable heaters on and in the correct locations, with the stats on them set below main heat, say 10* below. So they will just automatically kick on if the temp in their area drops for whatever reason “ circulator, thermostat or boiler down etc “ ?

  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 4,181

    Correct. Independent control, so any issues with the HA won't cause a total no-heat failure.

    ColdHouse
  • dabrakeman
    dabrakeman Member Posts: 879

    Depends on your idea of aesthetically pleasing but I have and like one of these vented gas stoves. Can plug it in for AC ignition but also have a couple D-cell batteries in it for when you go away and it will then ignite even if power goes out.

    https://www.napoleon.com/en/ca/fireplaces/products/gas-stoves

  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 70

    @dabrakeman "Depends on your idea of aesthetically pleasing"

    I have to say, those are beautiful and putting out 44K BTU's is impressive. I will have to give those some thought. The only problem is the Great Room of my house, which needs some extra BTU's has a wood burning fireplace.

    Maybe I should be kicking around a gas insert, if they make such a thing as one with a room thermostat to kick on automaticaly when away?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,884

    Look. I realise that I am somewhat contrarian — and worse, have a conflict of interest, but…

    As I have said before in response the the backup heat when going away for a couple of months, there are really only two choices as regards freezeups.

    One, drain the structure. While this won't help with other types of damage, it will prevent the pipes from freezing and thus prevent catastrophic damage when they thaw. And I do mean catastrophic, as in a total loss of the house and everything in it — and years of litigation with the insurance people about contents (they're usually pretty good about replacing the structure, but as cheaply as possible).

    Two HIRE a local individual to check the house. That doesn't mean drive by once a week. That means going there, going in, verifying everything is working and secure, at least once a week and after any major outage. This is where the conflict of interest is, as my daughter does just this for several high value properties in our area. And it's not free. She's bonded and insured. Four wheel drive trucks. Tools. Portable generators. Contractors known to her and on retainer on her 'phone. Very good relationships with the power company . Available (she or I or her husband) 24/7.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    bburdDCContrarianGGross
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,314

    @ColdHouse said "The only problem is the Great Room of my house, which needs some extra BTU's has a wood burning fireplace."

    That's not a problem, it's an opportunity. A wood burning fireplace is (1) a waste of space when not in use, and (2) a waste of heat when in use, as most of the heat goes up the chimney.

    If this were my house, I'd put a stainless steel liner in the chimney and install a Jotul Lillehammer or similar gas stove with a standing pilot and a millivolt thermostat (no batteries anywhere). A freestanding stove radiates more heat into the room and loses less heat up the chimney than an insert. And with a standing pilot, the stove works the same way a gas water heater does in many people's basement. Water heaters with standing pilots are often left unattended for years.

    Light the pilot, set the milivolt thermostat to 55 or 60 for backup heat, and you're done. Or if you're home and want to use the room, turn the thermostat up to 68 and enjoy the fire.

    Corktown
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,391

    I agree with the thrust but I'd say remote monitoring has a role to play as well.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,884

    Oh I agree. And in fact the properties my daughter cares for do all have remote monitoring — which notifies her if it senses a problem. It's part of the contracts. That said, it doesn't always work… and, if the person notified happens to be in Florida or the Bahamas or somewuch, it just causes concern but doesn't solve anything.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England