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Back-up/supplemental heat

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ColdHouse
ColdHouse Member Posts: 56

I have come to discover after many years and help here from the forum, that the BTU capabilities of my heating system are undersized for the part of my house that has a cathedral ceiling and lots of glass. We built the house when I was younger, 20+ years ago, it seemed more tolerable. I have just retired and spending more time in the house I have become less and less tolerant of the cool temperatures in the house when the outside temperatures drop below 20° F and where we live in northwestern Pennsylvania that happens way too frequently in the winter. The other part of the story is we are hoping to spend a couple of months of the winter in warmer climates. Both of these issues have me more than a little anxious. 

Our current heating system is radiant floor heat which works perfectly when temperatures are above 20–25°, I do not want to replace it, I just want to add some more BTUs to the room that struggles the most. The other part is I would like to have the additional BTU’s come from a device that could possibly act as a back up for when we’re away, if our main heat source were to quit while we’re away and have it automatically kick on, if that were to happen.

Here’s some of the further details.

Propane is our fuel source

We currently have Fujitsu Mini Splits “ 3 heads” that we primarily use for air conditioning that unfortunately stop producing heat when temps go much below 30

I would like the devices to be as unobtrusive as possible and Be automatic/thermostat control

The two things I’ve kicked around are, upgrading the mini splits to Mitsubishi low seer units that I understand produce heat below zero. The thing that makes my head hurt about doing that is, the Fujitsu are only 8 years old and work great for air, but…….. I hate throwing money away on something that is functioning but…

The other thing that I looked at today was 30k BTU ventless gas wall heaters, but uncertain if they can be run on a stat, plus not the most attractive addition to the house walls.

Any help in directing me toward a solution is greatly appreciated.

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,645

    does the boiler run non stop on the coldest days? If not it may have some addition capacity to add a hydronic heater.

    Can you get under the glass wall section of the home? You could cut in a few kickspace heaters to blow warm air across the glass. They may work at the same radiant temperature, they need about 115°F or more to kick out much heat.

    The go into the floor like this. Since it is a forced air convector you get a lot of BTU/hr output compared to fin tube or panel radiators.

    Screenshot 2025-12-29 at 7.14.28 PM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,853

    Do NOT consider ventless heaters. Just don't do it.

    Now having said that… @hot_rod 'ssuggestion is a very good one, if you can get access to under the floor to install them. Another possibility, but somewhat more complex, would be panel radiators in that specific room. They, however, need hotter water than your radiant system, which adds the complexity of generating that hotter water (your boiler can do that) but then mixing it down for the floor — which is also easy enough to do, but adds some valves and at least one more pump.

    The other complication is wanting something which will act as a backup when you are away. How independent do you want that backup to be? Are you looking for something which will take over if the boiler or some other part of the radiant system fails? Are you looking for something which will manage a power failure? That affects the choices…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,648

    you could add a vented wall furnace or console heater if you want it to be a separate system. there are versions that can vent out the sidewall.

    electric heat could make sense, it will cost more to operate but the lower installation cost might offset that.

    a small mod con boiler and panel radiators is another option.

    if you pick the right wall furnace or console heater you could get a model that will run off a thermopile or built in hydraulic thermostat and will run in a power outage.

  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,300
    edited 2:56AM

    I know you said you wanted something unobtrusive. This is understandable if the heating unit is not something you want to look at. But if you have the floor space, a small Jotul (or equivalent) direct-vented stove can be a nice addition that gives some ambiance in addition to heat. We have one in our sun porch, and it really doesn't take up much floor space. I cut the through-hole in the wall and installed the 2-foot horizontal B-vent myself, to code of course, and had a plumber run the gas line. The only other bit was a millivolt thermostat that I wired to the wall, and voila. Dirt simple install, really, and the millivolt thermostat works fine. It's a lovely place to sit and read in the winter.

    ColdHouse
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,588

    I'm with @hot _rod on this one. I have seen a project where the floor heat was sufficient for the home where there was average (35% of the walls are windows) glass, but the "solarium" with 18ft ceilings and 18ft floor to ceiling glass wall would not get enough heat after the outdoor temperature dropped below 40°. That same boiler would produce 180° water to run through Runtle® radiant panel baseboard radiators that wrapped around the perimeter of the glass walled room.   That was able to heat the room when the temperature dropped to 15°.  But when the outdoor temperature reached below that, the warm air duct system would operate to take up the slack.  

    Since you are using minispit systems for your cooling, that eliminates the duct coil option.  So perhaps the kickspace heaters as the third line of defense is the best idea.  That can all be operated from the same boiler that most likely has extra capacity that the floor heat as a heat emitter can't use.  

    As far as the minisplit heat pump is concerned, I don't see how that will be of any benefit.  In understanding the concept of a heat pump you need to  think of how it works.  Picture a window air conditioner installed in a window backwards.  The hot air blows inside while the cold air blows outside.  That is a great concept in the right climate zone. If the outdoor temperature is high enough the compressor can take the outside air and remove some heat from it, compress it into a hot gas in the refrigerant and let that heated gas into the indoor coil so heat can blow into your home.  

    So the heat from outside is compressed and sent inside.   As the outdoor temperature gets lower, there is less heat to compress so the compressor is doing the same amount of work and producing less and less heat as the temperature gets colder and colder.  Those low temperature heat pumps are just larger heat pumps that have more capacity so it will work at a little lower outdoor temperature.  You can't make more heat from air that is -20° by just saying it is a low temperature heat pump.  You need to use larger coils and compressors to do more work to make enough heat from that colder outdoor air.  I also find them to be less reliable than standard heating equipment as the temperature drops.  

    If the heater you have has additional capacity, why spend more $$$ on another heat source?  Just use better heat emitters to get that heat into the room(s). 

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,648

    a conversion to rankine will show you there is plenty of heat, the problems are with ice and finding a refrigerant that can deal with the differing temperatures.

  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 56

    Thanks for the reply. The boiler does not run continually and cycles on and off even in the coldest weather. The Zone that is BTU deficient has one 3/4” supply and a 3/4” return with two separate loops within the zone on it own dedicated circulator. Can the in the floor convectors be added to the current zone plumbing, or do they need a new dedicated supply, return and circulator? My current boiler temp is 130*f

    This option sounds like it would take care of adding BTU’s but not solve the back-up heat source issue.

  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 56

    I would really like to have a completely separate back-up heating source, separate from the current main heat. I have a few/too many issues for my home while away for extended periods in the winter. They are a driveway from hell, 500’ of uphill curve in a pretty rural area. It’s difficult to keep open when I am home, let alone when away. So the backup heat would be only for when the heat goes down, not do to power outage.

    This will be our first ever time away from the house in the winter, so still trying to figure it all out. I plan on adding a cellular based temperature alarm system to start and hoping to get a Neighboro Freind to plow and respond to an alarm

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,588

    In answer to"

    “Can the in the floor convectors be added to the current zone plumbing, or do they need a new dedicated supply, return and circulator? My current boiler temp is 130*f”

    By all standard rule of thumb calculations and some of the more specific actual engineering calculations, a 3/4" pipe can deliver 40,000 BTUh when there is a 20° temperature difference and a flow rate of 4 gallons per minute. So the question you need to answer is "does the problem space require more than 40,000 BTU of heat per hour?" To be entirely sure, I might put the kick space heater(s) on a separate higher temperature circuit in order to get the maximum heating output from them.

    As far as an auxiliary separate heat source is concerned, Electric heat as a backup is the most reliable since there are very few moving parts involved.  Set the thermostat at 55° on the standard heating system when you are away,  set the electric heat at 50° all the time.  When you are away, if the boiler heat fails, the electric will keep the place from freezing up. 

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdHouse
  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 56

    The vented wall furnace seems like it may hit both needs. What would you suggest as the “right” wall furnace? When I search I come up with a brand “Rinnai”

  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 56

    The adding additional emitters does not address the back-up heat source I desire. My boiler “Laars Combi” has gone down twice in the 7- 8 years of service, once, internal air intake screen plugged with bugs and one control board. I feel very insecure on the dependability of the Laars while away for two month of winter and really want a back-up source. The mini split seems like a good solution from a stand-alone true back-up. The problem for me lies in already having them…

  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 56

    Does there exist a correct refrigerant for what my situation requires?

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,374

    @ColdHouse : "I would really like to have a completely separate back-up heating source, separate from the current main heat."

    What do you really mean by "completely separate"? What contingency are you guarding against? Mechanical failure? Water leak? Propane leak? Running out of propane? Losing electricity for a prolonged period? What about if a storm blows a branch off of a tree into a house and it breaks a window? What if a burglar breaks in?

    You can always think of a situation where the heat fails. There is no technology where a house can be left completely unattended in the winter with 100% certainty that it will remain heated.

    ColdHouse
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,645

    Redundancy of another complete system also brings more electro-mechanical components that will at some point fail.

    I agree an electric baseboard would be the simplest, least prone to failure, other than power outages.

    Even a gas or LP appliance that doesn't require power can lose it's pilot flame and fail when most needed.

    Redundant systems, alarms, neighbors, it depends on how many layers you want to add for piece of mind?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ColdHouse
  • ColdHouse
    ColdHouse Member Posts: 56

    It’s a kill two birds with one stone problem for me. I have the need for additional BTU’s in the most used space in my house. I also would also like a backup heating source for the times we are away for a month or more in the winter. the direct vent wall furnace with separate stat looks like a good option for me.

    In the 23 years since will built the house, the heats gone down 5 times, that a failure once every 4.5 years. In those 23 years a tree branch has never busted a window.