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Antique steam heat boiler/radiators

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Rina
Rina Member Posts: 22
edited November 1 in Radiant Heating

I live in a house built in 1880's. The boiler is original to the home and worked perfectly until last week. I'm having a heck of a time trying to find someone to work on it. I don't even know if parts are available.

A wire in the gas conversion burner has basically burned up/ has come apart.

I used the electric gas valve to manually start it, it warmed up the house and turned off automatically like it should. The second time I manually started it, it didn't shut off, the temperature of the house rose above the thermostat setting, and had to manually, turn it off. I haven't touched it since.

So far, new parts are impossible to find. It's been recommended that I upgrade to a new steam heat boiler.

Is there any chance that I can find new parts out there? Where do look?

1000063524.jpg 1000063529.jpg 1000063539.jpg 1000063464.jpg 1000063463.jpg

I live in Michigan, so it's cold already. And a new boiler calls for asbestos remediation.

Is it time to bite the bullet and upgrade? I assume I need to get a new steam heat boiler. Any recommendations?

Does anyone have any advice whatsoever? I will take it!

Edit- By manually, I mean that I saw the thing with the yellow sticker on it. The two arrows pointed to a button and a lever. When I pushed the button and pulled up the lever, the boiler started right up like it usually does. It warmed up the house and then turned off automatically, like it should.

The second time I did it, the house just got warmer, ten degrees warmer than the thermostat,s so I pushed the lever back down to the off position. I haven't touched it since.

Edit- the part that says, "gas conversion burner" has a broken wire. Everyone says that parts aren't available.

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067
    edited November 1

    What do you mean by "manually started"?

    It should be replaced but someone that understands it probably could fix it. Hutzel had people that understood them 30 years ago, don't know about now.

    If the valve is sticking it could be replaced with a modern combination valve. the whole conversion burner could be replaced with a gas power burner. If a safety/operating control is bad, those are common off the shelf parts for someone that knows steam heating. You should not operate it without being right at the boiler watching the sight glass and the pressure gauge until the problem is identified and fixed.

    Rina
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,679

    That, as ou have surmised, is a gas conversion burner fitted to a very elderly boiler which was originally coal fired.

    Yes, the boiler should be replaced — sometime, and probably only because the efficiency is not very good. In the meantime, however, surely there is someone around who does power gas conversion burners who could replace the burner. It's not an integral part of the boiler — you can remove that burner that's in there and install a new one. It's not a DIY job, however.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Rina
  • Rina
    Rina Member Posts: 22

    I'm not sure how to properly respond to people who asked me questions. I've edited my post to try to answer the questions. I've called at least a dozen places. Most of these have looked at this boiler and said, they've never seen anything like it. Some are too busy or don't work with steam boilers. I would love it if the part could just be replaced. But the three people who seemed to know what they were talking about, didn't believe it was possible. Largely, because they don't know where to find the parts anymore that haven't been made in fifty years.

    mattmia2reggi
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,679

    I doubt that you can find the part — athough stranger things have happened.

    What you can find is someone who can take that burner out and put a new power gas fired conversion burner in.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Rina
  • Rina
    Rina Member Posts: 22

    I live halfwayI live half way between chicago and detroit. Would you happen to know anyone I could call?

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    I don't know who is around grand rapids and kalamazoo. maybe @GGross knows.

    Rina
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,146

    Might try @The Steam Whisperer - he's in Chicagoland but might come that far, and if not he might know someone. Also ISTR @dabrakeman is in or near Detroit.

    That boiler was designed to burn coal, and many such boilers were later converted to oil or gas firing. During the fuel-rationing days of World War 2, they were often fitted with baffles to slow down the exhaust gases and extract more heat from them. It would be interesting to see what's inside.

    And ISTR @Tim McElwain has the manual for that Republic Gyroscope burner.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Rina
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    also you can save some time for everyone by telling them you have a steam boiler with a gas conversion burner on the phone, if they don't know what that is, move on.

    Rina
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    that appears to be a multi pass boiler, if whoever did the conversion put some baffles in it to slow the products of combustion down it might not be awful.

    Rina
  • Pumpguy
    Pumpguy Member Posts: 774

    Have you tried Dean Boiler in Grand Rapids? Phone # 616 784 6171

    Dennis Pataki. Former Service Manager and Heating Pump Product Manager for Nash Engineering Company. Phone: 1-888 853 9963
    Website: www.nashjenningspumps.com

    The first step in solving any problem is TO IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM.
  • Chip_8
    Chip_8 Member Posts: 22

    Where exactly? I am in Ann Arbor area. I can make some calls. There is a few guys here still doing steam, but busy enough they don't travel far!

  • Rina
    Rina Member Posts: 22
    edited November 3

    @Chip_8

    I'm in Paw Paw

    269-779-7462

  • Rina
    Rina Member Posts: 22

    @mattmia2 @Jamie Hall

    1000063998.jpg

    Is this what you mean?

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    You would think being that close to Weil Mclain there would be some one.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    Yes. Assuming that they know how to do it properly.

    Rina
  • Rina
    Rina Member Posts: 22

    @mattmia2

    I have a guy who wants to replace it with a new boiler from that company. But he said he's having trouble figuring out how many btu's I'll need.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,679
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Rina
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    that is kind of a red flag unless there is some reason. it would be sized by measuring the EDR of the connected radiators.

    RinaWaher
  • Too bad none of the Dorstewitz' aren't still around. Good old Elmer tried working with his dad, but found that banking was better suited to him as he could wear a suit to work, his hands didn't get dirty and he got home in plenty of time for dinner. Smart man, that Elmer.

    Screenshot 2025-11-07 at 7.28.23 AM.png
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    Rinamattmia2reggi
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,254

    I think the liability on any person or company that works on that old of a piece of equipment is always a concern. If it leaks a month after a burner replacement??

    Often the service person gets the blame.

    I would expect to sign a disclaimer of some sort from a serviceperson that would tackle that.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Rina
  • Danny_Jr
    Danny_Jr Member Posts: 19

    I looked at Rina's boiler yesterday. Did an audit of the connected load. It was interesting to me that in the numerous audits I have done this is the first time that every radiator was the same model. And all we had to do was count the sections. She has a connected load of 765 Sq. Ft. So I am looking at the Burnham STMX299. Asbestos is making this a very challenging install and we will have to sort out the most cost effective method as well as the demo.

    I have done a number of conversion burners in my career which goes back 50+ years growing up in Detroit. I have never seen this burner. It is modulating and controlled by a vapor stat. We are looking into the cost of changing out the conversion burner as well. Two pipe system, piped reasonable well for the era of the boiler. Flue needs work and of course a Hartford Loop. The insulation is fairly thick so I am not sure if I am dealing with a 3, 3.5 or 4 inch header. I got burned on job not far from her home that had a 3.5" main and I thought it was 3" It brought the install to a halt until I found the 3.5" fitting I needed in CA. Availability is always the challenge this time of year so we are looking at all the options.

    Dan Wood Jr

    Dan Wood Co

    Kalamazoo MI

    Dan Wood Jr.

    Remember, when you find yourself between a rock and a hard spot, that's where diamonds are made!
    RinaEdTheHeaterManmattmia2Waher
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,453

    Dan Wood sounds like he knows a little about steam! I would go with his recommendations.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    Rina
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,172

    @Danny_Jr

    I hear you on the 3 1/2" pipe. I got messed up with 7" once and thought it was 6". I usually measure the OD of the covering on it and then stab threw it with a sharpened coat hanger. Subtract 2 x the wall thickness of the insulation to get the pipe OD.

    Is there room to install the new boiler next to the old and do the asbestos and boiler removal in the summer?

    Those old Ideal boilers were built like tanks.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    could replace the gas train to that conversion burner with a single stage combination valve and on/off vaporstat and fire it at whatever rate the boiler and system will tolerate.

  • Danny_Jr
    Danny_Jr Member Posts: 19

    We did discuss relocating the boiler. I have not ruled it out. But until we get the asbestos off the old one I won't know the best option. And you are right the labor to remove the old one will be significant.

    We are exploring the new conversion burner as a viable option. Most of are vendors are closed today or we would be on it.

    Dan Wood Jr.

    Remember, when you find yourself between a rock and a hard spot, that's where diamonds are made!
    Rina
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,709

    Mr. Wood,

    I am speaking out loud here as a homeowner and coal burner.

    I am wondering if a standard Riello 40 gas burner would be a quicker option for her?

    The burner tube is small enough that fabricating a steel plate to mount it in would be easy enough to do

    Cut the thick steel plate to size have a hole drilled in it large enough for the burner tube and drill bolt holes for the flange mount and then it is done

    You would have to open the ash pit door after the old burner and flame chamber is removed to remove the door and drill the mounting holes for the steel plate and then cement it in place or use a thick bead of permatex to seal the plate to the door which would save work by using a larger plate to overlap the edges of the ash pit door.

    You would want to use a low speed drill bit with water as a lubricant and coolant to drill through the ash pit door to mount the new plate to the ash pit door.

  • Danny_Jr
    Danny_Jr Member Posts: 19

    Thanks for your input. I’ll talk that over with the tech I have assigned to the project.
    We do like to provide options for our customers. And that may be a good one. One of the factors that play into it is her desire to keep the house long term. A conversion burner in an old boiler might get 67% +/- I can provide her 82%. Gas is not getting any cheaper. And the boiler is only getting older. I will post the final resolution.
    Best regards,

    Dan

    Dan Wood Jr.

    Remember, when you find yourself between a rock and a hard spot, that's where diamonds are made!
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,709
    edited November 28

    Thank for your response, If she intends on keeping the house there are good options for her to use a small coal stoker boiler for steam heat using rice coal that are much smaller than this boiler and Anthracite Coal is available in bulk quantities and burns cleanly with no smoke.

    FWIW the coal fired steam boilers are set up with controls and plumbing just like the oil and gas fire units and can be certified with ASME and H stamps.

    The AHS S130 coal gun coal stoker set up as a dual fuel unit for steam with a double drop header would take up less than half the space that beautiful Ideal steam boiler takes up.

    She would save a great deal of money using Anthracite Coal for making dry steam in that big house.

    If a Riello unit is chosen as a replacement gas burner you could simply add that burner to the AHS COAL GUN as the Riello burner units are equipped with them as standard equipment.

    mattmia2
  • Danny_Jr
    Danny_Jr Member Posts: 19

    I can honestly say, and I am not embarrassed, I have never serviced a coal burner.

    Wouldn't you have to restore the grate and ash pit?

    My dad converted our boiler to natural gas in Detroit when I was too young to remember, and I am 71. To the best of my recollection, we had 3 or 4 homes left on our block that still got coal deliveries. There are no suppliers on the West side of MI. Although one can get it delivered across state a ton minimum.

    Dan Wood Jr.

    Remember, when you find yourself between a rock and a hard spot, that's where diamonds are made!
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,709
    edited November 28

    Hello and good evening Danny_Jr. you and I are the same age,

    There is no need to be embarrassed at all. There are 2 coal brands of stokers that use an auger to feed coal to the fire box, EFM with its DF520 that is useable for steam and hot water heat uses Rice Anthracite Coal, and the Axeman Anderson 130S and the 260S that use Pea Anthracite Coal for hot water heat and steam as well.

    Keystoker also makes coal stoker boilers that can be certified for steam heat with the ASME and H stamps as well and would be readily plumbed for double drop headers as they are smaller than the ideal coal boiler that is there now and reuse all the new parts that were installed for the old boiler on a new coal fired stoker that does not burn a great deal of coal compared to the ideal hand fed boiler that was installed in her home.