Issues with steam system after work completed

SarahFrazerEddy · October 21

We have a steam system. Boiler was new in 2017. We purchased the home a year ago and had 1 season of heat with no issues.

Our underground dry return started slowly leaking where it exited the concrete. The original plan was to replace the return above ground. We were away while the work was done, so upon arrival, decision was made based on some of the existing set up, to vent the mains and not repipe a return. Was told this would work without issue.

Turned on the system 2 weeks ago. System shuts off due to low water. Cooled and refilled and system shuts off off again due to low water. No water ever returned to boiler.

Plumber comes out. Vacuums out standing water. Caps mains. Says fire system and let him know what happens. Same issue - system shuts off due to low water. Nothing returns.

We go a few cycles of vacuuming and restarting. Continues to empty the boiler with zero water returning.

We’ve now skimmed the system twice. No improvement. Plumber still believes that something in the system is causing the water to leave the boiler.

System has 2 mains and 9 radiators. All radiators are above the mains. 5 radiators are not heating - 3 on first floor and 2 on second floor. Unable to adjust pitch on one of the mains due to enclosure in ceiling and how arteries are piped.

Minor surging at boiler when firing.

Plan for tomorrow (7th visit to our home) is to add something to the boiler to address potential contaminants.

Options discussed to resolve include adding a pump. Set up of system creates challenges to add returns due to walls/ceiling/floor plan etc

Any advice would be helpful.

mattmia2 · October 21

if there were wet returns returning from the far end of the mains it is a parallel flow system. the mains are sloped away from the boiler and the wet returns bring the condensate back to the boiler. you have to replace the wet returns.

In theory you could slope everything toward the boiler and add drips before the boiler header to return the condensate but that wouldn't be practical because it would throw all of the pitch to the runouts to the radiators off, the mains are sized for parallel flow, not counter flow, you would essentially end up repiping the entire system.

Steamhead · October 21

@SarahFrazerEddy , those guys are clueless. Where are you located? We might know someone…..

SarahFrazerEddy · October 21

Located in Morristown NJ

mattmia2 · 12:14AM

@JohnNY @clammy @EzzyT @Mad Dog_2

JohnNY · 12:16AM

Thanks, guys.

EdTheHeaterMan · 12:48AM

Don't pay the plumber that did not solve the problem… if you paid them already, did you use a credit card? Call the credit card provider and dispute the charges. You paid for the boiler to work and it does not work so you did not get what you paid for. That is a classic reason for approving your charge-back to the vendor.

Once you have it taken care of by another contractor, you have proof that the original plumber was incompetent and does not deserve to be paid. When you hit them in the wallet, this is the only way they will learn. Tell them "this is called tuition."

SarahFrazerEddy · 12:56AM

appreciate the referrals to NJ based contractors. We are several thousands in with our current one and would prefer to try to remedy here before spending more with someone else.

Any validity to the contaminant theory? Anything else that could be causing the water to leave the boiler?

Any additional thoughts on a fix besides repiping the wet return? Our home was built in 1939. Ceilings are low. One main goes from boiler, through a header in a finished part of the basement into laundry room where it’s exposed again. Other main goes through unfinished side of basement through garage wall (concrete block) into garage. Wet return went underground in laundry room and in garage. Garage steps down. Layout would make it difficult to pipe a wet return from the laundry room without impacting the stairs into the house.

We do have central air that was just replaced. Thoughts on going forced hot air instead?

I’m so overwhelmed and we haven’t had heat since 10/10.

109A_5 · 12:57AM

" We were away while the work was done, so upon arrival, decision was made based on some of the existing set up, to vent the mains and not repipe a return. "

Not sure I follow the logic here. Vents and wet returns have two totally different purposes.

" Plumber still believes that something in the system is causing the water to leave the boiler. "

Sadly too funny, the Plumber is correct it is called steam. When water is heated to a boil the water leaves the boiler as steam. When the steam condenses (out in the system) it needs to return to the boiler, not sit out in the system.

" Was told this would work without issue. "

Yeah, they were Wrong and they proved it.

EBEBRATT-Ed · 1:28AM

As others have mentioned you plumber has no clue what he is doing. Sticking with him wouldn't be an option for me.

He is basically robbing you and should stick to sinks and toilets if he can even do that right. You need one of the contractors posted above. Every one of them is excellent.

If the returns leak of course the boiler will lose water and shut down.

The choices are to repipe the return above the floor and it is possible a pump may be needed.

You want to keep the steam your boiler is only 8 years old. If you switch to hot air you will probably regret it. This is a fixable situation

mattmia2 · 1:45AM

It may be possible to pipe the returns up high and drop them down at the boiler. they don't have to follow the supply mains, they just need to get back to the boiler.

the steam condenses in to water in the radiators and gives off its heat and that water has to flow back to the boiler. in your system the piping is pitched to collect it at the ends of the mains bring it back from the end of the mains (and possibly some other low spots as it works around obstructions) through the wet returns under the floor.

It is possible oil in the boiler from whatever the plumber changed is also causing the water to surge and get thrown out of the boiler, but that is a secondary problem to the missing returns.

maybe get a copy of "we got steam heat"

Jamie Hall · 1:56AM

That plumber has absolutely no idea what he is doing. I'm sorry — really — that you are a few grand into the job, but don't even think abut trying to go on with him. There's an old saying: when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

It's a little hard to say from the description just what got messed up — but that wet return was essential to the operation of the system. I wonder where the water is going now…

And no, there is nothing you can add to the boiler to fix the problem.

All four of the guys mentioned above are known to me, and are dead honest and do quality work.

109A_5 · 2:29AM

" It's a little hard to say from the description just what got messed up — but that wet return was essential to the operation of the system. I wonder where the water is going now… "

It sounds to me that it is a parallel flow system (steam and condensate flow in the same direction in the main) now with no condensate path back to the boiler.

" Vacuums out standing water " Sounds to me like the condensate is being removed from the system with a vacuum cleaner since it has no path back to the boiler.

Once the main fills with water (condensate) the steam can't get to the radiators, so no heat.

Expert talent is probably your best option. Is the Plumber now working for free since he so badly messed the system up ?!?!?

EdTheHeaterMan · 3:04AM

Lawyer to get your money back. That is how your plumber needs to learn by his mistake. Make him pay!

But you need it to work NOW. Call someone that can make that happen. Then take the other plumber to court later.

STEAM DOCTOR · 3:25AM

@SarahFrazerEddy you are being bamboozled. Boiler additives will not make one one iota of a difference. There are many things that can cause water to leave the boiler. But having it not come back is unheard of. Even in the most perfect system, water, in the form of steam, will leave the boiler. But it is obviously supposed to come back. This is a major major mess up. You need a return and there's no two ways about it. There was a return there before, and there must be a way to put a return there now. There are many different ways to skin a cat, but skinning a hog is not one of them.

Can you post some pictures of your boiler piping and more importantly, the steam main?

RTW · 12:03PM

To Quote Ed

"Lawyer to get your money back. That is how your plumber needs to learn by his mistake. Make him pay!"

My Reply:

Many responses to "get your money back" from plumber that failed - I think its permissible to post what you paid the plumber to see if its enough to attract an attorney to take the case. Two suggestions to learn from original posters experience 1) be home when work is done on heating system, and 2) search this site BEFORE hiring someone to work on steam

Regards,

RTW

SarahFrazerEddy · 2:11PM

$3200 paid. I haven’t incurred any additional costs thus far.

Photos below.

ChrisJ · 2:21PM

"decision was made based on some of the existing set up, to vent the mains and not repipe a return. "

That's pretty spectacular.

I'm sure everyone has already said it, but the venting has absolutely nothing to do with the return. The water isn't coming back after it leaves as steam because it has no return.

Jamie Hall · 2:26PM

oddly enough, the near boiler piping isn't bad at all. All in all, how very odd…

dabrakeman · 2:27PM

The original plan was to repipe the returns. Why wasn't that done? It seems replacing underground would have been the assumption in the original quote. Seems like the contractor may have underestimated the work and was trying to get out of it. There are other ways to setup the return as well above ground. Just loop the mains around after the last takeoff and continue to pitch down toward the boiler and then drop down to the floor back at the boiler. Join the two returns only after they have dropped below water line. In pictures 4 and 6 the main extension (your new return) would go through the wall by the door just below the existing main. Shorter main return could be done in a similar manner.

Jamie Hall · 2:28PM

Agreed, @dabrakeman . I don't think this will be all that hard to get running well. But… it does have to done right!

SarahFrazerEddy · 2:53PM

mattmia2 · 2:54PM

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1868758#Comment_1868758

find whoever installed the boiler or one of the several above.

(the previous homeowner had the boiler replaced presumably by someone else)

EBEBRATT-Ed · 3:24PM

I have no doubt that there are some challenges to re piping in a finished basement but this can be fixed.

But looking at it and speculating does no good. You need to get one of those experienced contractors to get his eyes on the job.

This can't be fixed by looking at pictures. A small condensate pump may be the fix if repiping low is not an option.

Your plumber already charged you $3200. He will probably only come back for more $$$.

As @Jamie Hall said your in a hole now stop digging.

mattmia2 · 3:32PM

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1868774#Comment_1868774

you could also run each drip as a separate dry return just under the main until you get to a place where you can run along the floor to the boiler or run the wet return in a completely different path from the current one. remember it doesn't need slope, it just needs to stay a certain distance below the water line.

i think it is very likely it can be done without a condensate tank.

pecmsg · 4:02PM

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1868711#Comment_1868711

time to cut your losses contact any of the names above

ChrisJ · 5:09PM

I think I figured out a good comparison.

We decided to remove your sewer line and not replace it because it's too difficult, but it's ok because we installed a bathroom fan.

The boiler is piped correctly because someone else did it.

Please call the guys others listed above.

mattmia2 · 5:19PM

I see several options that would avoid the stairs.

109A_5 · 7:26PM

If the foyer is above the basement the return for the long main may be able to enter the basement just above the step but below the actual house floor. So a steam main extension dropping into a drip next to to doorway. Once in the basement it should not be a big deal.

109A_5 · 7:40PM

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1868787#Comment_1868787

I like this Sewer analogy but don't add a fan just install more roof vents and cap off the sewer line where it leaves the house. It will be OK, honest. But actually it won't be OK. It will fail miserably.

mattmia2 · 8:34PM

The most creative solution I see is bringing the end of the main in the garage over the garage door as a dry return then either dropping it and the other main in to a wet return and bringing that around the perimeter to the boiler together or brining them separately around as dry returns and at some point dropping them down in to a wet return that goes to the boiler.

Issues with steam system after work completed

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