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Oversized overtall chimney?

I own an older home with an atmospheric vented gas steam boiler. Boiler rated 480kbtu input but substantially downfired (mainly to match connected load). Due to leakiness of window/doors etc we have struggled with draftiness primarily in the step-down living room. I added a automatic vent damper years ago and that helps some on off-cycle, but the draft really seems to rage when boiler is running. It was suggested to me that a static damper could be added to the stack to trim the draft rate during firing. I should add that the boiler which calls for 10 inch flue (on 15 foot chimney i think) is vented to a 12 inch square flue of 30 foot chimney. So roughly 150 square inches vs 76-ish. Then downfire to around 225kbtu and flue is at least 4x oversized. I have a graph from somewhere that tries to address the stack height. 10 inch on 15 feet good to 480-ish; on 30 feet good to 650-ish. So another 35% oversized. You may begin to see my challenge.

On a whim I installed a manual stack damper last fall and began experimenting (cautiously) by tweaking back from wide open, while testing for spillage at the draft hood. What i found was that I could limit the excessive draft rate, but the damper angle was a function of the outside air temp. Colder could take more throttling to balance. Warmer weather significantly less so. So much for set and forget.

Longer term solution probably calls for a ss liner, but what size? Eyeballing my graph suggests maybe 7 inch on 30 foot stack for 225kbtu input. Yet I have a feeling no installer is going to stray below the stated flue size for 15 foot stack.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,943

    Add a makeup air duct someplace near the boiler with a damper that is interlocked to the boiler. If it is causing a lot of drafts in the house it doesn't have a good source of combustion air.

    ethicalpaul
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,299

    That oiler have a draught hood on it? Atmospheric — it should. If so, you really have two separate issues: draught through the boiler, which should be controlled by the boiler's dampers, and draught up the chimney

    It's the draught up the chimney which needs to be controlled. The stack damper is really the simplest (and cheapest) way to do that, but as you have found it isn't set and forget — or, actually, it is: you set it for adequate draught on warmer days, and on nice cold days off it goes. Bad news: any fixed restriction on the chimney will do exactly the same thing — stack damper, reduced size liner, you name it. That's the way chimneys behave…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    dandub1960
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,927

    Hi, Two things come to mind that could work together to help. One is the makeup air @mattmia2 mentioned. The other is to enclose the boiler so it does not draw on indoor air. This would mean walling it off, or somehow enclosing it. No doubt a blower door test of the house could help with the drafty room also.

    Yours, Larry

    dandub1960
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,914

    I wonder if a mechanical exhaust system might be in order. You could install something like a Field Controls PVG-300. That can be dialed in to the exact draft required to maintain proper boiler venting without the constant changes caused by weather. Seal off the chimney and vent thru the side wall. For more control over the drafty house, add the Field Controls Fan-in-a-Can. or maybe just a combustion air inlet from outside to the boiler room.

    You can then seal off the boiler room and the boiler can operate independent of the chimney and the rest of the house for combustion air and exhaust.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    dandub1960
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,941

    @dandub1960 , what make and model is the boiler?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,963

    How did it go from 480K to 225K? Was gas pressure adjusted, or burners removed?

    mattmia2JUGHNE
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 1,238

    Install a "fan in a can" near the boiler. You obviously don't have enough combustion air available for the boiler if your drafts increase when the boiler is running. The boiler needs and is looking for combustion air. With a "fan in a can" you can bring in somewhat controlled combustion air. Then invest in weatherization of your house. Having drafts thru windows,walls and, doors like that is very costly on your fuel bill. there are so many government programs to help with the cost.

    Larry WeingartenEdTheHeaterMan
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,562

    Would a simple dryer vent be just as effective by placing the vent flap hood inside the room where the boiler is?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,901

    If the boiler was starving for air, wouldn't there be a lack of draft?

    The chimney is pulling air from the same space as the boiler, no? Wouldn't the draft absolutely have to increase when the boiler is running due to hot air being produced?

    I'm very confused,

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    bburd
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,426

    All draft is is the difference in weight of a collum of air at a lower temp versus a column of air at the stack temp. Of course, if the flue id restricted, or a lack of combustion air, the wrong chimney cap or some trees can affect things.

    I think it is legal on a gas atmospheric to install a flue restrictor (that's not the correct name which I can't remember) and with the correct MU air and correct burner adjustment on a warm day it will help control the draft. But the draft may increase on a cold day not a 100% fix.

  • HydronicMike
    HydronicMike Member Posts: 111

    Any draft measurements or combustion numbers? Room pressurization/depressurization checked?

    Really concerned about severe downfiring and CO.

    Chimneys can never be too big.

    dandub1960
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,183

    The fix for that on an atmospheric gas burner would be a double swing barometric damper on the flue pipe, and an unrestricted supply of combustion and dilution air.


    Bburd
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,914

    Quite the contrary, there is more than enough combustion air. That house is so leaky that there is more than enough combustion air. When the chimney starts to draft to its capacity, the air rushes into that boiler room and chimney from all over the home. installing a Fan-in-a-Can will only add more combustion air to the boiler room, it will not throttle the exhaust out the chimney. As a first step, sealing off the boiler room will accomplish the desired result. That may be easier said than done in that home. I would think that plugging off the chimney, and venting with a fan that can be adjusted to match the combustion air needs of the boiler as it is currently operating is a better use of that money. Finally a Combustion Air Inlet ducted to the boiler room would finish off the job, No need for motorized inlet and motorized exhaust. One motor should be enough.

    Next step is to start the sealing up process, caulk, windows, insulation, and all things related to sealing up the conditioned space so those drafts stop altogether. Without this step, a windy winter day will have the same amount of draft thru the home as any chimney can cause.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    dandub1960Larry Weingarten
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,914

    I believe that is what a combustion air inlet looks like but the flap is missing and replaced with a mesh screen to repel critters. That said, a common dryer vent is only 4" and that would not be sufficient for the amount of combustion air required for that boiler. I might guess that @dandub1960 might require an 8" or 10" intake hood. Since field controls only lists the IAH-6 as the largest part available for their combustion air systems, @dandub1960 may need to have one custom built in the size required using the IAH-6 as a template for the larger one needed.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,914

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    dandub1960
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,943

    There are bigger hoods for kitchen and bath exhaust fans. Also made by sheet metal fitting manufacturers although it looks like all the brands i knew of for them have been bought and renamed.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,941

    You're thinking of a "neutral pressure point". @Tim McElwain is the one to talk to here.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,901

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    mattmia2EdTheHeaterManPC7060
  • dandub1960
    dandub1960 Member Posts: 2

    Thank you for all the insights. I should have mentioned i have an air intake blower (200 cfm i think) interlocked to the main gas valve, so that helps some. Maybe i should go bigger? Also the basement is deliberately not too tight. The boiler is a Burham K-5007. Two outside burner tubes removed, but mainly downfired at the gas valve regulator. I check my firing rate by clocking the gas valve proofing dials.

    I would love to seal off the boiler room from the rest of the house but finding room for an air intake is challenging right by the front stoop. I'm intrigued by barometric damper or mechanical exhaust. At least i now know the temperature effect I've seen is expected.

    Thanks all, Dan

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,426

    @Steamhead yes a 'neutral pressure point" TY

    I was trying to remember where I saw this I Think it was in one of Timmie's books that I have i will have to look

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,426

    @HydronicMike "Chimney's can never be too big"

    Yes, they can. The boiler or furnace has to be capable of heating the chimney up to create draft. A chimney that is really oversized will not draw well.

  • HydronicMike
    HydronicMike Member Posts: 111

    I think Jim Davis would disagree in this scenario.

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,927

    Hi, I dealt with an atmospheric draft water heater with a 4" vent, going into a 12" chimney. It never could establish draft, so just spilled into the room. I fixed it by continuing the 4" vent up. Certainly there are many flavors of this with every situation having its own set of facts.

    Yours, Larry

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,914
    edited 12:50AM

    That is just mean Chris. I know of many professionals that are incompetent! I trained several of them to competency before they went into business for themselves. At which time they became incompetent businessmen.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mattmia2PC7060
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,901

    You just said it was the magic of DIY.

    I'm not sure how else I could take that?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,914

    I just would like to mention that a professional might baulk at converting a boiler with a 480,000 input to operate at 225,000 input. That is less than 1/2 the rated firing rate. Even an inexperienced professional would caution against that.  When asked how this might happen, I could only think of one answer.  Someone experimented with their own equipment.  Since the results did not burn down the house or cause any of the residents to pass away from CO poisoning, then the experiment was a success and the system was left to operate that way ever since.   

    Nothing wrong with that assumption IMHO.  I have downfired many a coal conversion from over 1.50 GPH (the rated BTU of the original boiler) to less than 0.90 GPH  by placing a flame retention burner in the firedoor of the boiler to put the fire black in the place it was designed to be.  Does that make me incompetent?  The customers with the lower oil usage don't think so. And those boilers were still operating 15 years later just before I converted them to new gas boilers once the Gas Co. buried mains down the street.    

    Then they saved $$$ again with ModCon boilers.  Repeat business. The glory and reward of doing the right thing for the customer. A professional job for a fair price.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,901

    I see

    My mistake. I should've known better with you, I was surprised.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    EdTheHeaterMan