Boiler acting up again
Hey guys,
I tried to message back in through my old thread but I know there's a lot going on in there not sure if anybody saw it so I figured I would start a new one.
My boiler's acting back up Again, yesterday I noticed at the house felt like it was getting colder sure enough the thermostat was reading 68 I go upstairs to check the boiler The boiler temperature is high The valve zone control panel is calling for heat but the boiler is not fired up pushing heat through the pipes.
I turned The power off to the boiler for a little bit opened up the air vent there was a little bit of air trapped in there, not sure if this is normal or an indication that I still have air in the lines. I turn the power back on at this point I also turned the thermostat off so I came back downstairs to turn the thermostat back on went upstairs waited for it to tell everything to call for heat and it turned back on.
After a few minutes I went upstairs to check on the boiler and it was not fired up, the temperature went from about 170 to 230°. No I don't know if this is a fluke but I did turn the power off for a little bit thinking I would let it cool down which it never did so then I turn the power back on hit the aqua stat box a little bit with a screwdriver and You heard that click and the boiler start a fire and back up. From this point I watched the temperature drop from 230° all the way down to 130°.
I was monitoring it for the rest of the evening and everything seemed to be okay. The temperature got as high as about 160° the house was definitely heating up I wake up this morning and houses as cold as ice.
From here I went to look at the boiler, now this is the first time this happened, the pilot light was off, I didn't smell gas but you can hear the boiler humming until I turned the power off to it. The whole system is ice cold right now and I have no clue what to do I don't know if I should try to bleed the lines. I'm looking up information telling me that it could be the thermocoupler that has gone bad. I don't know if everything that happened is an indication that there's more going on than just a thermocoupler or a pump so I'm trying to get somebody's advice and knowledge here to see what I should do from this point.
Comments
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post the link to your old thread so we don't ask all the same questions again,
I still say circulator, but now it sounds intermittent, loose wire? bound circ freed up?(air or grit), post a picture of the circ,
and for the pilot being out, this is another development, post a picture of the boiler,
any reason you haven't called a service in ?
known to beat dead horses
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Here's the Link to my other discussion
When I looked up what could cause the pilot light to go out everything was pointing to the thermocouple, so that's a cheap enough part that I replaced It didn't look like it was in the best condition to begin with. I just got done replacing that and tried to fire the boiler back up, held that pilot light in for good 2 minutes, the tip of the thermocouple was red hot but every time I let go of that button it would not stay lit.
When this initially happened I was waiting for somebody to come over and basically everything you guys told me to do in the other discussion he said that's exactly what he would have done. By the time he got here the only thing he did was put a multimeter on the aquistat and he said everything was reading at 24 volts And when he left there was no issue with it overheating or doing exactly what it's doing now that it did last time. Aside from that I really can't afford to hire somebody to fix it I mean pay them to diagnose it is one thing but at the same time if that's something that I can do myself why would I pay them to diagnose it? That's why I'm here hoping you guys could help me figure this out.
I'm thinking It's that aqua stat especially after I tapped on the side of the box with the butt end of a screwdriver and all the sudden it fired up. I checked all the connections in there everything looks good.
Or my worst case scenario everything is going, the aquastat, the circulator pump, and the pilot control valve. Sorry if I didn't call that last part by its exact name I'm not sure what it's exactly called but it's the part that feeds the gas into the boiler.
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Don't know about the pilot light — but the first thing I'd look at at this point is the aquastat. I'd like to think it was a loose connection… and it might be. But it may also be that it just isn't happy. It should have a high limit which should have opened before the boiler got to 230. But… it should reclose when the temperature dropped, and it sounds as though a contact didn't reclose.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
That's what I thought initially maybe a bad connection. But everything inside the box looks pretty good. And even though I got the pilot light off I put the power back to the system called for heat from my thermostat and I can feel the circulator pump kick on I can tell that it's working, well at least it feels like it does anyway, I'm assuming if it wasn't I wouldn't feel any type of vibration from it, again I could be wrong. But now with the pilot light not wanting to stay lit with a new thermocouple on there I'm thinking that the pilot valve or gas valve whatever the component is called has to be replaced. Throughout all these issues I never had an issue with the pilot light ever shutting off on me until I woke up this morning.
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One thing to add that I noticed, when I turn the power off to the boiler and it's been powered down for a bit and then I switch it back on and go over to a thermostat to get it to call for heat It takes a good while for that relay to click. Now once that happens it seems like it becomes faster if I go over to the thermostat turn it off and turn it back on it reacts a lot quicker. Now at the same time whenever I fire up the heat for the winter for the first time it does the same exact thing with the electricity being on so I don't know if maybe it's just after sitting dorman for a while it takes a little bit for that relay to click open if that's normal or if this is an indicator that my aquaStat is definitely going bad. I tried to do some research to see if an aquastad can affect the pilot light not lighting and basically what I read it seems like it can but usually it's not the main cause, what I read it seems like it could be that pilot/gas control valve or the thermocouple.
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Sounds like you have a few things that are intermittent. The gas valve, assuming you have a solid connection on the new thermal couple? The thermal couple really shouldn't be getting red hot, that will shorten the life. Could be the pilot flame is too high? It should just barely surround the tip of the the thermocouple.
A down draft could also be blowing the pilot out. Which could point to someone cranking up the pilot flame too high.
So a few different conditions could cause the pilot to extinguish. Can you observe the flame flickering from a down draft? A draft gauge would be needed to check the flue draft. Or a match under the draft hood. Certain random wind conditions, lack of adequate combustion air could cause draft problems.
The aquastat controls the boiler operating condition. Perhaps if you lose circulation it could exceed the high limit setting? That could be an air bubble, or a bad aquastat.
So either you sit and catch the condition in the act, determine which control dropped off, and when, or keep replacing parts.
It would be the same challenge for a paid troubleshooter to find random, intermittent failures.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
So pilot is good now?
what do you have for a thermostat?
some have delays from when you first power up the boiler,
what happens if you jump TT at the stat?
and are wires secure at gas valve? picture there?
known to beat dead horses0 -
I am almost positive it's not an issue with the downdraft, We have had many windy days throughout the years here and have never had an issue. I should mention this is not when the pilot light is on, this is me trying to relight the pilot, I cannot get it to stay lit when I release the button. By the way you worded your response, it makes me feel as if you believe my pilot light is up and running.
That's what I am thinking, it is the aquastat. I call for heat from the thermostat and the relay clicks, the circulator feels as though it's running, not a guarantee, that's just based off of me placing my hand on the pump before and after I turn the thermostat on.
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Here's a video using the multimeter to check for 24 volts and I'm not reading anything. I place the contact voltage tester on the lines and only two are firing up.
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Pilot is not good.
The thermostats are both Honeywell RTH2410B1019.
I did not try to jump TT, how would I do that and I'm assuming I should have power to the unit when doing that?
The wires are secure at the gas valve.
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The Romex wire (white cover with black and white wires inside) Should be connected to L1 and L2 on the Honeywell L8148 Aqustat relay. Those wires should have ~110-120 VAC when ever the power switch is on. The touch tester is beeping as a result of ~115 VAC being there.
The terminals Z and Tv should have 24 VAC when ever there is ~115 VAC on L1 and L2 T and Tv should have 24 VAC when the thermostat is not calling for heat (turned down below the room temperature). When the thermostat is calling for heat the T and Tv should read zero volts. (0.0 VAC)
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Hey guys,
Just wanted to fill everybody on where I stand right now, I had a side discussion with Ed trying to diagnose this and All signs are pointing to the gas valve being bad so I'm going to have to replace that. Once I get it replaced I'll message back in here and let everybody know what's going on. Thanks for your help today.
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I got The gas valve replaced, I checked for leaks everything looked good I fired it up and it seemed like the flames were too high, I spoke with Ed that usually helps on here and he told me I got to check the pressure coming out of the gas valve. I was hoping to get somebody that I know that had a manometer unfortunately I had to order one and I just got it but even though I got advice from somebody else and then tried to confirm it with Ed I'm just still a little confused so I was hoping I can get some more help if possible.
I'm attaching pictures of what my boiler says it should be at I'm not sure what reading I'm supposed to base what off of. I'm assuming that the pressure coming out should be between 4 and 5.5 inWC. And the max allowed pressure coming in should not go above 14. I'm pretty sure what I test it and got a reading on after unscrewing the set screw attaching the manometer and opening up the gas valve is the gas coming in obviously since I got a reading on that end. You can see in the picture what it was reading so I'm assuming that that reading is okay and now I have to get the reading for the pressure going out.
What I was told was that I have to relight the pilot and call for heat with the manometer hooked up to the opposite set screw which should be right next to the gas line coming out of the gas valve from there I can use the adjustment screw to raise or lower the pressure, I'm assuming counterclockwise with lower it and clockwise would raise it or do I have that reversed?
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"manifold pressure" is the outlet pressure of the valve but it really should be set up by someone that understands combustion, that is just a starting point based on how it is behaving.
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Manifold Pressure: is the outlet side of the Gas Valve going to the burner.
Allowable Gas Max: is the maximum gas pressure applied to the input side (Supply side) of the Gas Valve.
Supply Pressure Min: Is the minimum pressure (input side or Supply side) for the Gas Valve to function correctly.
I think part what you are missing in this situation is the Gas Valve is also a pressure regulator. So with a supply pressure between 5.5 and 14 the manifold pressure should be 4.0.
With your other intermittent issue, it is quite common with Aquastats like that for the solder joints that connect the relay to the circuit board to crack and fail. You can't see them without removing the circuit board from the housing which usually requires the sensor bulb and its capillary tube carefully removed from the Well also.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System2 -
Thanks. I want to get this issue resolved so I can move back to the other issue which is as you said more than likely the aquastat. It seems like all fingers are pointing towards the aqua stat but I just would like to know that it's the issue 100% without a doubt considering that it's not a cheap part to replace.
I didn't get The pressure reading for the outlet side last night just because I want to make sure what I was about to do was the correct procedure, connecting me manometer hose to the outlet hole, igniting the burner, then calling for heat and waiting for the boiler to light up from there what I understand is I should start getting reading on the manometer and then turn the adjustment screw accordingly, counterclockwise to lower and clockwise to raise.
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You need to take the pressure at the outlet side of the gas valve.
You need to measure the pressure of the gas going to the flame. you need that gas pressure to be 3.5"wc. This number is from experience, not from the Valliant Spec Book. Start there and look at the flame. I believe you may find that your flame is more Blue than the Yellow flame that I saw in your video.
Use the OUTLET PRESSURE TAP in the illustration by placing the manometer tub fitting in that opening and connecting the tube from the manometer on the adaptor. when the gas valve opens, use the pressure adjustment screw under the cap to make the adjustment to 3.5"wc
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I did that this morning, it was low and as I started raising it the flame started to become more orange obviously more of a pronounced hissing noise from the gas, I didn't take it entirely to four I have it I think between like 3.6 and 3.7 just because it seemed like it was high enough there. I let it run for a bit then I went upstairs and there was a smell, didn't smell exactly like how gas would smell but smelled strong enough to fill up both of the rooms that share a wall with where the boiler is. So I didn't want to take any chance with that smell not fully understanding what it is that I'm smelling so I turn the heat off. Contacted that HVAC guy that I was introduced to through all this and asked him if he had any time to come out today and let me know what that smell is if it's bad if it's something burning off because last night I did take a bristle brush and tried to clean off the top holes of the burners, but at the same time I feel like that smell should have dissipated and not have gotten stronger after about 10 minutes of running.
So as of right now That's where I stand and I'm just currently waiting for that gentleman to come out This afternoon.
Thanks
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Measuring the stack temp is part of it. Like I said, this isn't a DIY job.
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Your vent may be blocked, or the heat exchanger may have carbon building up in between the sections. This is something that you don't want to mess with. If the flame is burning poorly and the exhaust is not leaving the building, that is NOT GOOD
It is time to call a professional that is familiar with the combustion process and how to locate problems with the combustion process.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The guy I got in contact with couldn't make it today, so I have something set up with him for tomorrow afternoon. In the meantime, I have the boiler shut down again. I swear after this I want to move to a location where I don't ever have to turn heat on again lol.
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@The_Comedian said: "I swear after this I want to move to a location where I don't ever have to turn heat on again lol."
I thought I did that when I moved to South Carolina until this past January
I think the Florida pan handle and New Orleans got it worse.
I think you need to move to the Sahara Desert. The Government can't control the weather there
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Better get some snow tires, @EdTheHeaterMan !!
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
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Oh! you noticed my wheelchair tracks don't have snow chain imprints…. LOL
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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That's about what we got in michigan.
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Lol. Sounds like a plan.
Yeah, the weather has been oddly crazy this season
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Hey guys, Just wanted to give everyone an update. The HVAC guy I know swung by earlier this afternoon. He fired everything up We were smelling that same smell again and basically he said it smells like what should be coming out of the stack at the roof and I was like you know what that's exactly what it is I've been up on roofs before in the winter and that's the exact smell. So he said more than likely it's not venting out of there. He noticed now the flame was higher with it being set to the right inch water count, because when he fired it up for me prior to the gas valve being changed she said the flame was much lower than it is now. Another thing he noticed the last time he was over before the gas valve was change was that the stack coming out of the back was warm to the touch even though the boiler had been on. We removed the stack from the hole on the back of the duct work that slides into the boiler and looked inside of there and it looked bad as you can see from the pictures.
I managed to find an Ace hardware that had a vent cleaner that fit in between all the slots so I cleaned between every single one of those slots so much stuff was coming out like dust in the air and so much stuff fell to the bottom of the boiler. When I was done I vacuumed everything up and then I push some compressed air through the baffles. A lot more came out did some more vacuuming and cleaning up and I just now fired it up.
So far so good. The stack on the back of the boiler is now hot to the touch where you cannot leave your hand on there. It's reading over 100°. I do not smell anything in the air in either one of the rooms like I was the other day and today when he came over and tested everything. Clearly that was an issue. Now I'm just going to monitor it for the night and hope everything is good from this point unless if it starts acting up again then I know from previous discussions here it's more than likely my aquastat.
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The stack should be 300+ degrees f or more. If the stack temp is low it may be that you need return water temp protection on the boiler. After it has been firing for a while, what is the supply and return water temp? A high mass system that is causing the boiler to continuously condense will cause it to plug up like that. If it was underfired for a long time that could also cause it. You should add a spill switch on the draft hood and a rollout switch by the burners.(and get someone that understands combustion to look at it).
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And get a good unlisted low level carbon monoxide monitor.
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The temperature on the boiler hit the 180 point and shut the burners down. Don't know if this is an indication of anything you were mentioning there. The HVAC guy that came over he said he usually deals with furnaces not boilers. So at this point I think I do have to get some money to just double check it make sure everything's up to par mention the stuff you guys have mentioned to me as well. Now I got to find somebody reliable That isn't going to hit me hard either when it comes to pricing.
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I do have a carbon monoxide detector in the area.
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I let Cool down but the temp didn't seem to be coming down fast on the gauge It went to about 175° and then I called for heat again now once I do that the temperature gauge starts dropping fast down to about 130°. From there it slowly rises it seems like it stays steady at about 160° or at least it was until it shut back off now once it's shut off the temperature gauge is now reading slightly over 190°. When it kicked on I took a temperature reading of the stack coming out of the back and it was reading at about 200°
I've never had to pay attention to the boiler as much as I have in these past few weeks so I'm not sure what's normal and what's not I feel like the temperature after it shuts off shouldn't jump higher and shouldn't stay high that long unless if it is reading the water just sitting in the pipes and that's going to take a little while to cool down. I'm assuming when it fires up it's pushing the more room temperature water through the system and that's why it drops in temperature. I have also read that some people say 180 is recommended but then other people are saying 190° isn't bad either and it could be more energy efficient so you know it's one of those things on the internet where there's a billion different recommendations.
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What you just explained sounds normal.
Now that you have the heat exchanger cleaned out the burner will operate as it was designed.
@EdTheHeaterMan Said on March 3 @ 1:30 “Your vent may be blocked, or the heat exchanger may have carbon building up in between the sections.“
Now that the dust and carbon is all gone the boiler will vent the byproducts of combustion (Flue Gas) properly. The water in the boiler will get hotter faster (the dirt acts like insulation) and then the thermostat will get satisfied sooner.
More to follow
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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the temp rises when it shuts down because the circulator is no longer moving water through it to remove the heat that is in the cast iron block and the combustion chamber. some modern boilers run the circulator for a couple minutes after the heat call ends to move that heat in to the system.
160 or so is a bit more efficient as long as that is sufficient to heat the house on the coldest day. the hotter the boiler, the less heat that is transferred to the water but if it is too cool you will get condensation of the products of combustion in the boiler or vent.
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So normal operation.
From a cold start the burner will heat the water in the heat exchanger (boiler sections) while the circulator pump is returning room temperature water back to the boiler. This will make the entire system temperature rise gradually. If the call for heat is long enough the boiler temperature will reach the high limit temperature and the burner will stop while the circulator keeps running to circulate the water in the boiler to the radiators and the radiators to the boiler.
If the call for heat is still long enough the boiler temperature will drop as the heat leaves the radiators into the rooms. The boiler temperature will drop about 10° and the burner will come back on. This may happen several times until the thermostat is satisfied.
When the thermostat is satisfied, the circulator will stop and the water will also stop moving. This means all that hot cast iron will put that heat into the water increasing the temperature in the boiler to a point. That is because the water is no longer moving thru the system. You have already indicated that you saw that happen.
Another thing that happens is the hot water in the radiators will heat the rooms and eventually get cold. It may get all the way down to room temperature like 70° if the thermostat stays satisfied long enough.
When the next call for heat happens the water in the boiler may still be 150° or 160° but the water in the radiators may be only 70° So when the call for heat happens, the burner will light and the circulator pump will run moving boiler water into the radiators and radiator water into the boiler. The water temperature in the boiler will drop even though the burners are on. That is because the water entering the boiler is colder and has not had a chance to collect the flame’s heat as fast as the water is moving. Eventually the system water temperature balances and starts to rise back up to add more heat to the rooms.
So this sounds like what you explained in your last post, doesn’t it?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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That Vaillant boiler has more than earned its retirement. All the money you've spent on firing the parts cannon on that relic would have been better spent on a replacement. Also, any fuel burning appliance in your home requires a yearly inspection and service by a competent, trained professional.
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So cleaning the heat exchanger is not a good idea?
And replacing a defective gas valve after verifying that was the cause of the pilot failing to stay lit is not a good idea?
And the Aquastat problem (if it exists) has not been determined as of yet. So no more parts than needed so far as I can see.
And I don't see anyone stepping up to help out with the cost of a new boiler for this guy.
I try to look for the lowest cost options for each situation. I don't just say "Replace the whole thing” when I discover several problems at the same time. I look at the condition of the overall system and then decide whether the option to offer a replacement boiler is in the consumer's best interest. When Asked if it is better to repair or replace by a customer, and I ballpark the replacement boiler job, done the right way, they usually make the informed decision to repair.
The existing Valliant boiler is not leaking and from the photos I have seen so far, it looks like it is good condition, a replacement CI boiler will not reduce the fuel usage in any quantity to justify a replacement of a perfectly good piece of cast iron that is already there. A new Weil McLain boiler connected to the same system may not solve the problem if the system has flaws. It will just move the system’s problems to the new boiler. (hence my tag line below)
I say we find out what the real problems are before we jump to the conclusion that the only right thing to do is replace the boiler. That’s my two cents (but we all know that is really 4 cents now)
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Sorry I missed that.
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So if I get hit with a really cold day and the house doesn't seem to be getting up to temperature should I increase the aquastat by 10°?
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Exactly like what I thought was happening. Thanks for confirming that.
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