Help with boiler
Hey guys,
The issue I'm having with my heat is somewhere between 5 to 6 days ago I noticed the house was getting cold, looked at the thermostat it said the heat was on but the temperature definitely was far below what I had it set so then I checked the pipes and the baseboard pipes felt cold. I unclipped my thermostat from the wall and clipped it back in and I could hear the boiler kick on. I thought maybe it was just a thermostat so I went out and bought a replacement. I set the thermostat to 70 trying to heat the house up from being at 64, It got to about 69 when I went to check it again and noticed it was going back down. I felt the pipes again and they were cooling down.
From this point I went upstairs take a look at the boiler and it was getting pretty hot. The gauge was reading as high as could go on the temperature. I was trying to get some information off of another forum somebody told me to flip the handle on the pressure reducing valve just to make sure that it was functioning when I did that because of the tight space I'm working in and got caught for a second and started building up pressure in the boiler about a minute or two later the pressure release valve blew open and that would not close by the looks of it it was shot so since then I have replaced that. I have the entire unit shut down, no pilot light no electricity. I got some info off of somebody on that other forum in another post I made on how to bleed the system One of the lines was definitely producing more air than any of the other ones. Not a lot but like I said there was air in the line. From this point I don't know what to do I don't know if I should relight the pilot and try to turn it back on to see if that was the issue. I did feel the pipes prior to turning everything down and on both sides of the circulator pump it was hot. In here any weird noise coming from the circulator pump. The circulator pump is about 6 years old.
After purging the system for air today I used the pressure reducing valve to repressurize the furnace and as I mentioned it is off and completely cold I have it right at about 12 psi. Assuming that's how you go about repressurizing it based off of information that I've been researching. I understand that most people would tell me just hire somebody but If I can avoid adding a financial burden that's what I would like to do. I am handy I get the concept of it I'm just not a certified HVAC technician. I just want to possibly get some advice from somebody who does understand these systems better than me to see what I should do from this point forward b I have attached some pictures so you can see what I'm dealing with. I'm fully aware from some people that certain components need to be updated that aren't up to code as well. My biggest fear is right now that maybe I do have air trapped in the system because I didn't purge it correctly and turning it up I might create more pressure I'm not sure if that's something that's real or I'm just making that up in my head lol.
To Explain The pictures, I am trying to get a wide-angle shot of my setup for better reference. Obviously when you can see the pressure gauge with the heat very high and the pressure high as well that is Right before the pressure release valve blew open. Obviously the one with the temperature completely down to nothing that is where it's at right now just making sure that that pressure is good should somebody inform me to fire it back up I don't know if it's going to build more pressure once I heat it up, I would assume it would.
Thanks for any help, I know it's a lot to take in and a lot to read so I appreciate your time.
Comments
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Really two possiblities, but one much more likely than the other: that red tamk is called an expansion tank, and its purpose is to have an air cushion inside wo that the water in your system has a place to expand to as it heats up. Odds are really good that that tank is no good, though it might be only that it has lost its air charge.
On the bottom of the tank as it is installed there is an air valve, like the valve on your car tire. Poke it. Just poke — don't hold the stem in. If water comes out, it's done and you will need a new one. If air comes out, find a pressure gauge (again like for your car tire) and use it to measure the air pressure on that valve.
The other possibility is that the fill valve, which I don't see, may be leaking. But let's look at that tank first.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
I did what you told me to do, air did come out of there. So I got a tire gauge and it's reading 20 psi
I've attached a few pictures of the fill valve so you can get a better look at it. If by leaking you mean water coming out around the pipes I don't see any of that.
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Since you do not have water coming from the air side of the tank, you are probably in good shape. but the 20 PSI in the tank is not the "empty" air pressure. that is the boiler water pressure compressing the air in the tank. In order to set the tank pressure properly you can have no water in the tank.
This comment explains how the boiler pressure effects the tank pressure and why you need to measure the tank pressure with the water side at "zero" 0 PSI
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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So what you're saying is I would have to drain the entire system in order to get the correct pressure in the expansion tank? Sorry I'm just having a hard time following what you're telling me to do at this point.
A thought popped into my mind after I sent that first paragraph, so you're saying my boiler pressure is at 20 by saying that's what the reading that I'm getting off of The expansion tank? My gauge reading is about 12 to 13 PSI so does that mean that one of the readings means something different? Is my gauge wrong or is the expansion tank in fact at 20 psi It's not from the pressure in the system? I don't know if these two work differently if more pressure builds up in the expansion tank then would be in the boiler itself that's why I'm asking this question. Thanks.
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No you do not have to drain the entire system. You just need to lower the pressure on the boiler side for the time it takes to test the air pressure in the tank when there is no water in the tank. Look at the edit and the illustration in the post I added to my previous comment
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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By The way I like your quote about making an expensive repair lol
It made me think How as I'm trying to do some research to figure out what the issue is the circulator pump pops up as a possible issue and it's cheap but not cheap you know? And I have done what I've read to diagnose it try to feel the pipes on both sides but as I mentioned it will heat the baseboard heating when it kicks off at that point if it was working in circulating then both sides of the pipes coming off of the circulator pump obviously are going to be warm/hot. You can hear the thermostat definitely click the boiler on And when it seemed like no more heat was getting to the baseboard pipes It still seem like the boiler was heating up as you can see in my initial pictures that was the boiler raising to that temperature close to if not at 250° I'm assuming because the water was just sitting there boiling and not being pushed through the system. That's why I'm here asking questions because I don't want to find out the hard way that it isn't the circulator pump.
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Just trying to confirm I comprehend what I read correctly, step one would be to lower the boiler boiler water pressure to half of what it is. Right now my pressure is at about 12 as was stated in that post so I would lower it to six. With that being said do or can I use my pressure release valve to lower the pressure from the boiler?
Step two test the PSI on the expansion tank If it's below 12 add air which I'm assuming I would use an air compressor or a manual hand pump to get it up to 12 PSI. And then add pressure back to the boiler bringing it back up to 12 using the fill valve.
Let's say I do this and the pressure is above 12 PSI Do I leave it or do I have to let air out to get it to be 12 PSI?
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Have a bicycle pump ready to add more air to the expansion than just in case you have lower that 12 PSI air pressure in the empty tank.
- Turn off the valve that feeds the pressure reducing valve.
- Then open a boiler drain or purge valve to let out some water until the water pressure in the boiler goes below 5 PSI on the gauge.
- Now take a pressure test of the air side of the tank with the tire gauge.
- if the air pressure is below 12 PSI then add air pressure with the tire pump.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Sorry I was being distracted
You are correct.
If you have more that 15 PSI then you want ot lower the pressure to between 12 and 15 PSI
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Important part I forgot. there should be a valve in the inlet side of the auto feed. You need to close that first.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Looks like it had some pretty ugly water in it before you purged? If so it could mhave destroyed that circulator again.
Turning off all the red and yellow valves and the fill water should isolate the boiler to pull the pump.
Check that it is getting 120V when a zone valve is open, first.
I'd remove the 4 allen bolts and pull the motor out of the pump body to check it. If the boiler gets hot quickly and no zones circulate, the pump is where I would look. Instead of disturbing the bolts and gaskets.
If it is bad, buy another and just swap the motors out.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
That's the main water line that would stop new water from coming in, correct?
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Yeah when that pressure release valve blew it was nasty and what continued to come out was a smokey gray color.
Where do I test it at for 120 volts? Obviously with that being said I'm sure I have to restore power back to the unit but should I also reignite the pilot light as well to Go about doing everything you just mentioned?
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That's okay, trust me I'm trying to keep up with this myself and I'm using my phone and it seems like there's not a response and then all the sudden there is a response where I thought there wasn't one even though I'm refreshing it b
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If the aquastat didn't shut it off before it got to 235 then that control might be bad.
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All right so I did everything step by step as you mentioned. The pressure was actually too high so I released enough to get it down to 13 PSI and figure that's the nice middle ground between 12 and 15. Repressurize the boiler to 12 PSI. Took the reading on the expansion tank afterwards adding pressure back to the boiler and It is now at 21 PSI.
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You're saying This component here is probably faulty since it did clearly go over 230 and did not shut the boiler down?
Is there a way to test to see if that is bad with a multimeter, or is it better to just assume that since it didn't shut off more than likely it's bad?
Looks like It can be removed by using an Allen key but it also looks like they're screws coming in from the back of the panel as well That would have to be removed.
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That disc under that plastic strip and brown switch is where the setting is, look at what it is set at. The zip cord that goes to the ciruclator, check for 120vac on the terminals at the lower right on a heat call, that would be a good place to see if the circulator is getting power. There is a bulb that comes out the back of that aquastat relay which goes in to a well in the boiler to sense the boiler temp. If the water was below that well it wouldn't sense the temp properly.
This is really where you should call a competent tech if you don't understand it because if the high limit isn't working that could cause a fire, an explosion, or someone to be badly scalded when the relief blows off with superheated water that flashes to steam as soon as the pressure is released.
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The Automatic feed valve is set too high. That is adjustable and can be set to 12 PSI.
STOP! Before you replace that control. The serrated dial on the left side of the control is the temperature adjustment for the burner to stop.
Before you spend $$$ to replace it try to move that dial to a colder number on the dial. I can't see the numbers at the angle you shot that photo but there are temperature numbers associated with those dots on the dial and there is a metal arrow just above the dial to indicate where to set the temperature you want
180° should be more than enough on most systems
The thermometer on the boiler gauge may not be accurate and the dial on the control may not be accurate so you might just try to lower the control dial about 20° from where it is set now. If the control dial is near 220° then set it to 180°. If it is already set at 180° the drop it to 160° and see if you get enough heat when it gets cold… But first we need to get the water to circulate into the radiators.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Yeah sorry for that That bad shot. It is set to 230. I am waiting for a tech to come out He's going to let me know what's going on with it but I haven't heard back from him and I know my wife spoke with him because he stopped by her work today and said he's not available tomorrow but I never heard back from him after I had called him. He said he's going to diagnose it and figure out what's going on with it but in the meantime me being the person I am having this issue I need to learn how this operates and how certain components can affect the issue I'm having. That's why I'm coming here asking people questions, I am trying to learn.
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I'm not following what you're saying about it being too high, I mean I get the concept of it being set too high but what I don't understand is how you're figuring that out from what I'm saying. It was my understanding that to bring the pressure back up on the gauge on the boiler I have to open the automatic fill valve up and bring the pressure back up manually, That's what I did to get it back up to 12 PSI, was that wrong to do? Is it supposed to do it on its own when the PSI is set correctly at the automatic fill valve. If that's the case I'm assuming there's something else that I need in order to figure out how to set the automatic fill valve to 12 PSI. I did take a photo of the top of it so you know exactly what type of valve I have, not sure if that helps but figured it can't hurt.
I had no intention right now of replacing that control panel, I looked it up and it's definitely not a cheap part so I would rather figure out if it is faulty before actually having to. That's why I had asked if there's a way to check and I did some searching online after I asked as well It looks like you can check with a multimeter. Obviously I'm assuming that I'm going to have to flip the power switch back on although I'm not entirely sure if I have to have the boiler fired up as well or if I'm good to just turn the electricity on. It looks like in some of the videos they say turn the thermostat on so it's calling for heat so I'm assuming there's a possibility I might have to fire the boiler up.
As I mentioned The dial is set to 230° so I will drop it to 180° but as of right now I don't want to turn this boiler back on until I'm sure I'm good to go. Anything that I should double check just to be entirely sure that I'm not going to run into an issue with firing it back up any type of added pressure after I turn it back on something that could go wrong if I did something wrong?
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turn it down to 180. it is working most likely but it is set above the boiling point of water at atmospheric pressure at the moment.
see if there is 120vac to that black zip cord to the circulator on a heat call. it is very possible that it came loose inside the junction box of the circulator, there is a little box on the side of the circulator with a cover held on with some screws. look inside if there is 120v at the terminals in the aquastat relay
turn the power off before taking the covers off. obviously you have to turn the power on to test for 120v at the circulator connection.
you can fill it manually with the fast fill lever until we figure out the circulator, unless it is just air bound. we can figure out the pressure reducing valve setting later.
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@The_Comedian said All right so I did everything step by step as you mentioned. The pressure was actually too high so I released enough to get it down to 13 PSI and figure that's the nice middle ground between 12 and 15. Repressurize the boiler to 12 PSI. Took the reading on the expansion tank afterwards adding pressure back to the boiler and It is now at 21 PSI.
Was this a Typo and you ment to type at 12 PSI with the feed valve open? If you let the water pressure get to 12 PSI then the pressure is not too high. If the boiler pressure automatically increased by the auto feed valve to 12 PSI then you are good.
If the auto feed valve made the boiler pressure automatically get to 21 PSI when the boiler is cold, then the Auto feed valve is set too high and should be adjusted to match the expansion tank pressure. Both the Expansion tank pressure and the cold boiler pressure should be set at the same pressure. 13 PSI is fine in your case but 21 is not.
And on a side note… Is this going to end up in a night club standup act anywhere soon?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I'm going to test all of this tomorrow. Right now I'm calling it a night. Thanks for the info and I definitely will get back to you with a response to see where everything's at I'll even take pictures just to help with a visual aid in case if there's something that maybe I'm doing incorrect that you catch, Just want to make sure that I am doing everything correctly. Thanks.
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Sorry, I use voice to text a lot so sometimes the sentence is don't make perfect sense and when I was sending that I kind of thought that it would come off the wrong way. So what I'm saying I did was after I turned on the main water line supply that would feed back into the filler valve/auto feed valve I did hear small amount of water sounding like it was being pumped through but it did nothing for the PSI on the gauge for the boiler. I had to manually flip that while having my son monitor the pressure on the other side because I don't have access to both sides one half of it is on one side of a room and the other half is on the other. So once we got it to the 12 PSI range reading on the boiler I double checked the pressure on the expansion tank. The expansion tank reading was 21 PSI after getting the boiler up to 12 PSI. But before I added the pressure back to the boiler I got the expansion tank pressure to 13 PSI. I'm just saying when I got the pressure back up on the boiler I then rechecked the pressure on the expansion tank and the expansion tank is the 21 PSI I was referring to.
And no, lol. It won't end up in a night stand up comedy club. The name is Justin reference to the graphic novel/movie, The watchmen. By the way the series of unfortunate events unfold of my life I might be able to turn it into a funny sitcom like that show Titus if you've ever seen that lol. For instance on top of this as I was running out this evening as I'm messaging you guys on here I have my heater on in my car and all the sudden I smell gas so when I get to my destination I pop the hood and I see that I have gas leaking from the line that comes over the top of the intake and connects both of the fuel routes together and it's leaking from there. It's like once the hits start coming they just don't stop I'm sure many of you can relate.
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Your tire pressure gauge is not accurate or your boiler pressure gauge is not accurate. it is physically impossible for the pressure in the air side of the tank to be different from the pressure on the water (boiler) side of the tank. That is a closed system and all the pressures will balance out almost instantly.
If the tire pressure gauge says 21 when the boiler says 13 then something is 8 PSI off. That means that you don't have the full air pressure in the tank or your boiler pressure gauge is lower that the actual pressure in the boiler. Some tire gauges are not accurate as pressures lower than 20 PSI, since most tires are inflated to over 30 PSI all the way up to 80 PSI and above on some truck tires.
Look for you tomorrow. I have a busy day. Breakfast meeting in the morning and DR. appointment in the afternoon. I may not get back to you until after dinner. …but others will be here to help.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I'm pretty sure the tire pressure gauge is good as two days ago I used it to double check the pressure on my tires after they had inflated to the set pressure. The tire pressure gauge I have is going as low as 12 That's why I stopped it at 13. I'm not saying you're wrong here I'm just letting you know information based off of me using this gauge.
With That being said, if the tire pressure gauge is functioning I guess all fingers are going to point to the temperature pressure gauge on the boiler itself.
I'm still a little confused about this system in general because it seems like if I was to open up the pressure release valve the automatic fill valve should be resupplying the boiler with the appropriate amount of water to bring the pressure up to where the automatic fill valve is set. When I open the pressure release valve to drain some pressure from the system it does not do that. Is everything that I'm saying there correct or incorrect?
Honestly I'm just starting to get extremely confused about the system It feels like every time I think I understand it there's just one more step or one more thing to account for that could be causing another issue that was related to the issue that I was trying to resolve. I feel like my head is spinning. Honestly wish I just had somebody here to say look this is what this is supposed to do This is what you're supposed to do with that let me show you hands-on I'm definitely a better visual learner so trying to take this in and then overthinking things a lot is where my confusion starts setting in.
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I wanted to double check the pressure on the expansion tank again, I started off by closing off the main water supply valve going into the automatic fill valve. After that I use the pressure release valve to depressurize the boiler. There's no more water coming out of the pressure release valve and the temperature/pressure gauge is reading at 5 now It's never done that before. At this point I have no clue what to do if that gauge is reading five and there's no water left in the boiler to depressurize it. It seems like there has to be something creating that extra pressure or as you stated the temperature/pressure gauge needs to be replaced. I wish there was an easy way without constantly throwing money just speculating that something is broken to confirm that it actually is broken before going through the process of having to go out buy the product do what I have to do to remove and replace whatever the part is that I bought.
This is what I was referring to in my last post, every time I turn around it seems like I'm getting the grass from the system and then there's one thing more that can go wrong to cause another issue.
To me, there being no water creating pressure in the boiler makes me believe that it could possibly be air in the system creating the pressure Since there's no water coming out of the pressure release valve after draining it to try to release the pressure in the boiler.
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As of right now this will be my last update. My previous post I I was talking about the pressure in the system. After that issue I had I decided to add water back to the boiler. I got it up to 15 and I wanted to drop it down to 12 I'm draining a lot of water using the pressure release valve to try to release some of the pressure and it is just stuck at 15. Start thinking there's no way in hell as much water as I drain at this did not lose some pressure. I start tapping on the gauge and sure enough the needle moves and it drops below five. Come back over to the other side manually open up the fill valve a little bit go back over to check the pressure It's still at 5 I tap the gauge and it shoots up to 15. I'm no HVAC technician but I'm pretty sure that this points to the temperature pressure gauge on the boiler being faulty and also needing to be replaced.
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Did you put s second gauge on a drain somewhere? Get a gauge that will screw on garden hose thread and use that. There are 2 similar threads that i'm confusing right now.
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your boiler pressure gauge is incorrect by 5 PSI. So when your gauge is reading 15 PSI you most likely have 10 PSI in the boiler.
Regarding your tire pressure gauge that measures down to 12 PSI; pressure gauges are most accurate at the middle of the range. At the top end and the bottom end not so much. So 21 psi pressure on the tank may actually be lower.
Here is an illustration about the pressure being the same on both sides of the membrane
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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No, I didn't know I was supposed to do that. I do not currently have that gauge, I'd have to go out and buy one if this is a necessary step.
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I'm not going to lie, I am lost. I'm reading it but I'm lost. I feel like I followed the directions you gave me but I am still doing something wrong giving me that false reading. I was hoping to get this figured out today since I have a snowstorm coming in tomorrow and a few days next week as well, but it looks like I am in for some cold days in this house. I still haven't heard back from this tech either. I felt like I was getting it and now I am lost again. I appreciate the help.
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If the gauge is jumping all over i would get a gauge you can connect to one of the boiler drains. That type of gauge can be wildly inaccurate if it gets dropped or someone braces themselves on it or if it otherwise gets bumped hard or bent or corroded or dirty.
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One thing I did want to add, in the another forum I asked for help understanding how to purge air from the system and I was told to close the valves above the spigot and then open the spigot, were those the correct valves to close?
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How much of a plumber are you? There are a few places you could tie in a new pressure gauge easily and have one accurate, new gauge to use.
If you remove the air vent, add a tee, screw in the gauge and re-install an new 1/2" air vent here.
Those hose bib type gauges are usually much too high of a pressure range, unless you replace the gauge with a 30 psi. At that point just put a new 30 psi gauge in permanently
\You will make yourself crazy until you getb a good, working, accurate gauge.
.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Those are the correct valves to close…………and open (the spigot). Do them one at a time and you really need to feed water to keep the pressure at 26-27 while you do it. That's a two person job unless you have long arms…………….
There is a small tab on the PRV (sitting just above the tank) that allows you to bypass the PRV. Just swing it 90 degrees to the vertical. But be ready to instantly drain from the zones or you'll trigger the pressure relief valve and get water all over your floor. You won't be pleased about that. You need to monitor the boiler pressure and control the amount of water you release to maintain 25-28 psi while you do this.
You will need a garden hose…………………..
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From years of personal experience, that fill valve needs to go. Those iron body valves have a great tendency to not reseal after years of rust and corrosion.
May I suggest this Caleffi 573 valve. It is a fast fill valve, always. No levers, nuts, hoops to adjust. Set it to 25 for purging, you get at least 5 gpm. Then back down to 12 psi for operation. It has a better than average Winters gauge. Winters makes 5 or 6 levels of gauge quality and accuracy.
And you should really have a backflow device, so you cant end up with boiler water coming out of your faucets :)
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS is the valve to use. Set whatever you need for operation or purge……………..DONE. All brass…………lasts………probably 25 years!!
p.s: You don't need the gauge. The valve is quite accurate without it.
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I never said I was. I've done minor plumbing, rerouting water lines, replacing hot water heaters, toilet repairs and replacement, etc, things along those lines. I came here trying to get a better understanding of this system, but it seems like I have many issues that need to be addressed on top of the issue that initially brought me here
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