Electric heat is too expensive, very high bills/useage
looking for advice to update my heating system in the north east, usa
current situation….. 2600sq ft house, insulated well for a 60's build, walls, ceiling, attic all insulated , windows seem alright
heating systems, in ceiling electric radiant heat cable, and ductless mini splits which seem to do well in cooling mode for summer but undersized for winter? runs constantly never gets comfortably warm if temps drop be low 40 degree im forced to term the electric ceiling radiant heat back on
winter bills month can be anywhere from $400 to $750 dollars a month, using around 4,000 to 4,900 kwh a month !!!!!!!
in the fall/spring time without heat or ac bill is around $150
im highly considering switching to a gas boiler for forced air or radiator hydronic heat ? the upfront could would be very expensive since this house does not have ductwork
any suggestions or tips would be useful , anyone else had to switch or upgrade there heating systems ?
Comments
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Your heating cost will depend on the fuel you use and its cost where you live. Here's a comparison calculator where you can enter your local costs for electric, gas, and oil into for comparison.
The default prices in the calculator are current prices for Maine. Where I live, near Boston, natural gas is now around $2/therm, and oil is around $4/gallon.
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that’s a pretty big house and electric resistance heating uses a lot of juice as you have seen
You have enough info to determine the return on investment
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
what do you think is easier to retro fit install air ducts for forced air or radiators for water heating ?
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I'm not a heating pro, just an old house homeowner. You say you have ductless mini splits that already work well for cooling. I am not a fan of forced air heating, so I wouldn't add ducts just for heating. Also, ducts will take up more area than hot water pipes.
I prefer hot water heat, so my preference would be to install cast iron radiators like we have in our 100-year-old house. Cast iron radiators hold and radiate heat well, and make for very comfortable heat.
If you have 2 floors, you'll need to run vertical pipes up to the second floor, and those will be exposed/visible unless you have conveniently located closets and chases in which to hide the pipes. You can also run the pipes inside interior walls, but then you have to open the walls up.
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if it were me I’d choose hot water heat but you can get quotes for both I would think
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Hydronic heat is superior, IMO, although you are used to forced air essentially. In order for forced air to be comfortable in my opinion it requires a humidifier. Forced air would likely be cheaper though.
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"winter bills month can be anywhere from $400 to $750 dollars a month, using around 4,000 to 4,900 kwh a month."
That actually sounds cheap, in a lot of the northeast electricity is around $.30/kWh now. So that would be $1200-$1500 / month. If you're right you're only paying 10-15 cents.
If electricity is cheap a heat pump might be your best bet. In most of the northeast you can expect an average COP in the 2-3 range, which would cut your bill by a half to a third.
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how long will you live there? Financially, it may make more sense to keep the status quo. Your electricity is cheap - look to cold climate heat pumps - either ductless replacements or ducted.
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I would suggest hot water — hydronic — heat as well, but may I suggest using flat panel radiators rather than big cast iron ones? They are somewhat less disruptive to room arrangements, and are much less obvious.
However. There is the question of how to power them. The best solution would be a natural gas fired mod/con boiler. They are small (at least relatively speaking!) and can have direct outside venting and exhaust. Unhappily in some areas of the northeast it is no longer possible to have new natural gas hookups — and in others it is simply not available. Propane, then would be the next best be — also a mod/coon — but considerably more expensive.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Hi, I'll just throw in that there is probably a lot that can be done to tighten the shell of the home for both air leakage and insulation. Winter would be a good time to use a blower door and IR camera to have a close look at things from both inside and outside. This will tell you where the biggest leaks are. After taking care of that work, you'll know better if revamping the heating system is needed, and how to size it.
Yours, Larry
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Retrofitting an existing house to install ductwork will wreck the house and cost a fortune.
Hydronic will not be cheap but you can install it with small pex piping a hot water boiler and baseboard or wall or floor radiation. The install uses relatively small piping and a mod con boiler can be vented outside without a chimney.
Post your location and/or look at "find a contractor" on this site"
We may know someone who can help.
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Fishing pex for hydronic is preferable to cutting open walls for ductwork. Just sayin'.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
thank you for the replies everyone !
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A couple of steps skipped there. Do you have any heating data before the heat pumps went in, this could be used to figure out what your heat loss is. From there we can see if you heat pumps are up for the job.
What heat pump do you have? "runs constantly" is normal for modulating units.
"never gets comfortably warm if temps drop be low 40 degree"
Are the heat pumps blowing hot air, like around 100F or are they supplying lukewarm air? If you are not getting heat out of them, there is a good chance they are down on refrigerant. This would explain lack of heat and high energy use.
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I used a thermal camera on them it said like 98 degree is the heat coming out
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To understand the bills, can you include $, kWh, start and end date for the last few?
the concern I have is does it make sense to spend tens of thousands go fix this ?0 -
I will try to upload my electric bill usage history shortly , thank you for being interested in helping
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well inaulated for the 60s isnt saying much, but to really improve you need either the inside walls open or siding stripped on the outside.
do you know how long has the heat pump been installed, and or model as asked. might help hazard a guess as to excess heat loss vs. low performing or undersized pump.
do you run radiant panels full bore for comfort and dislike the bill or are you still lacking comfort even with radiant panels running
and how many floors in home. slab or basement? is basement ceiling finished or open? those
so do you think the house was built with those radiant panels or perhaps was originally electric baseboard or . . . ?
seems unlikely people have lived with inadequate heat since the 60s. probably not elements of a dormer nonelectric system lurking.
while comments are correct it is generally easier to retrofit hydronic, if a lot of home has unfinished or minimallyused basement, and you can spare a closet to a riser plenum to the attic or central location on 2nd floor, ducting is an option and gas furnaces are as easy to install w/o chimney. on balance, since you have air con though, hydronic has merits unless your interior use does not afford space for baseboard or rads and you have some access to install ducting.
one other option is better heat pumps. im not a fan of not having fossil backup, and even more capable pumps qill have low efficiency in cold weather, but they will be more efficient in electric consumption the rest of the time and can probably follow or reuse existing piping.
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here is the recent power bill, and prior usage
its brick outside walls, layer of particle board then, 2x4 walls, pink insulation with a plastic layer, then real plaster finish interior, 1.5 stories,, half basement,, half crawl space encapsulated . the electric radiant heat does a really good job at heating, its very comfortable heat as well its just very expensive to operate, all appliances and heating systems are electric . and yes it was built with the radiant heat cables in the ceiling , as the original owner was an executive at the power company
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"as the original owner was an executive at the power company"
Just like my house! Electricity is great when you get the "executive rate". 🤣
Pulled it all out and now everything is gas- Range, WH, furnace. I did save the "all electric house" doorbell badge however.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
how much are u saving monthly? what was your old electric heating system?
im not sure if im staying here long term or not, but with the way interest rates and housing prices doubled or triple i may very well be, plus i think it would be challenging to show someone theses ultities bills if it was time to sale the house , i can not possibly see electric getting any cheaper in the future
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Haven't been following it closely as I did it in the late 90's, but my gas bill is ~$100/mo same with electric and I have 6 people still at home. Hot air resistance heating was already gone when i bought the place. Previous owner was being crucified with that.
Run the numbers using @jesmed1 's table.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Hi, With that construction, I'd start with blower door testing and an IR camera. Seal things up as best you can. Then see what your bills are like. Adding insulation to that won't be much fun. Either exterior insulation as they are doing with the masonry buildings in Europe now, or interior rigid foam sheeting, which would mean redoing nearly all interior surfaces… If you need a new roof, maybe adding insulation there won't hurt so much.
Yours, Larry
ps. You may want to spend some time here: It's a good source of valid info that can help.
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Is the basement ceiling finished?
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just in one game room that is about 17 x 23
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Without getting too deep into the details at this point, I would strongly consider the following:
Step 1: Have an energy audit performed to establish a baseline. Air leakage testing combined with the use of an infrared camera, and a heat load\loss analysis.
Step 2: Bring in a trusted HVAC pro who can give you an estimate for ductless mini splits for the 1/2 story, and a modcon gas boiler feeding a staple-up plated radiant floor system for the 1st. This path keeps aesthetic concerns to a minimum, and really could result in very significant energy savings.
The construction details you mention for your house make it a challenging house to improve through air sealing and insulation measures. Your house truly appears to be one of those that should take a HVAC system upgrades approach to improving its performance. The energy audit should reveal if cost-effective air sealing and insulation measures are on the table as “low-hanging fruit.”
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@HighElectricBills I've examined your usage, thanks for providing that! You have nice and cheap electric rates.
I personally wouldn't have installed electric radiant + ductless heat pumps, for the reasons you understand now. I myself have a ducted heat pump that does great without any resistance help. That said, this is what your home has.
You've used 29,000 kwh over the last 12 months. I would guess 6000 went to cooling and 1000/month was base consumption (electric water heater?). That leaves roughly 11000kwh for heating. That's about $1650 per year for heating. So as rough as this calculation is, $1650 is your maximum savings. Assuming gas is around $1/therm variable cost, you'll looking at around $750 for gas, so $900/year of savings. I personally think installing hydronics to save $900/year would be a bad investment, I think you'd be looking at least a 2-3 decade payback.
Ideally, we could build a time machine and add ductwork at construction. Then you'd be able to add a ducted heat pump + furnace and save big. Unfortunately, we haven't figured that out yet.
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thanks for doing the calculations and giving a through analyst!!!!, very helpful, appreciate your time and hope u have a good day , thanks again
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The current charge for natural gas from Peoples Gas is
$0.3894 per therm
for gas supplier in my area
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What's the gas delivery rate?
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I agree with @Hot_water_fan 's basic conclusion that the payback of converting to hydronics would be decades. I also ran a few numbers and came up with this:
Current energy prices in State College, PA (a West Penn service area):
Natural gas: $1.65/therm (as of last Nov, per paenergy.com)
Oil: $3.40/gal (current pricing)
Electric: $0.15/KWH (from your bill)
Using those as inputs to the pricing calculator I posted above, I get relative heating costs for your house:
Electric: $2500/yr (about 60% of total annual electric usage)
Oil Boiler: $1900/yr
Nat Gas Boiler: $1300/yr
That assumes boiler overall efficiencies of 75% for both oil and gas. Gas boiler efficiencies can be higher for condensing, so in theory you could save a little more with a condensing gas boiler. But based on the above conservative numbers, you'd save maybe $1200/year with gas at current prices. Still a very long payback period.
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That doesn't include delivery. This report says average price for nat gas in State College PA was $1.65/therm as of last November. Scroll halfway down the page.
https://www.paenergyratings.com/natural-gas-rates/pennsylvania/state-college
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thanks for your time greatly appreciated !
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Do you have any power bills before the heat pumps went in?
What heat pump do you have (outdoor unit model number, indoor head sizes)?
1 1/2 story structures are notorious energy pigs, no matter the heat source, they will be expensive to heat.
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