Multiple Leaks in Steam Boiler Sections
Our boiler is now going from full, to low-water cut-off in about 24 hours. (I don't know how many gallons that is.)
I took the cover off expecting to find a crack, or a big corrosion pit that I might be able to patch and limp through the winter before replacing the sections.
Instead, it appears that many of my "heat exchange nibs" have sprung individual leaks?
Anybody have any decent short term repair ideas?"
I was contemplating something like the "Bars Leaks" solutions that you can put in automobile radiators.
If that is NOT insane, then I was wondering about best practices for that effort.
Add solution, and then fill boiler to top and start a heat cycle? Would that seal, or would my normal operating pressure of 2 psi be too low?
Does anyone know the operating pressure of an automobile radiator? (So I could try my experiment at as close as possible to the "design" conditions?)
If I capped my swing joints and return lines, I could build a little extra pressure in the boiler. I am not too worried about a few extra psi, UNLESS the sealer would plug my gauge port and/or plug my pressure relief valve!
Any advice at this point would be greatly appreciated!
Comments
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may I ask the manufacturer?
That looks tough. I don’t think any internal stop leak is going to work at all.
You might still try some hi temp jb weld on the holes at the top and keep your boiler pressure very low like 1/4 psi max and put on large radiator vents then limp till spring
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
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yeah. What Paul said. You might get lucky with Jb weld-for a bit. I wouldn’t leave town though. Keep an eye on it. You’re going to need to replace the boiler. Sorry for the bad news.
THINK
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For the record, automobile radiators are pressurized to a maximum of 15 psi, the same as the safe working limit for low pressure steam boilers. This allows the coolant to reach 260°F without boiling; the high temperature improves the effectiveness of heat transfer with smaller equipment.
In normal operation, such high temperatures would only be reached in hot weather or under high load conditions, so I doubt that auto stopleak compounds depend on such high temperature or pressure for their effectiveness.
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Bburd0 -
start lining up the contractor to replace it!
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It is a Dunkirk Model 400. I get about seven years of usage and then we get leaks and have to replace the boiler sections.
I don't understand the advice, "put on large radiator vents" if anyone can clarify?
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The idea with the large vents is to allow you to get at least some heat out of it, but at very low pressure.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
We are down to essentially zero steam system contractors here (Wichita, KS).
The last rebuild was from a heating and plumbing company, and I think it was a 3-day job and cost about $4,000(?). They did not even know how to skim the system at start up.
I am an "above average" level homeowner plumber - which of course still puts me miles behind an actual steam system plumber.
If I am replacing the bad boiler sections with the exact same replacement sections, is that something I can probably do as a DIY project?
I checked on the plumbers a few times on the last replacement, but didn't really observe the job. The only "new to me" thing I observed was them setting some kind of plaster between the ends of the sections.
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I am just a homeowner/engineer, not a heating pro. But if I were you, the first thing I'd do is buy Dan Holohan's (creator of this website) book The Lost Art of Steam Heating. If you're a homeowner who will soon need a new steam boiler, it'll be the best $40 you can spend. I just bought a copy and am halfway through it, and it's chock-full of knowledge that you will definitely need in an area with few or no steam experts.
A brief perusal of this site will give you an eyeful of bad steam boiler installations from contractors who either know little about steam, didn't read the manufacturer's piping instructions, or both.
Two of the most important things are (1) sizing the new boiler correctly, and (2) installing the near-boiler piping exactly as specified by the mfr. Sometimes you can get away with minor deviations, but gross departures from spec (as often happens) will bite you.
So, educate yourself, and then be prepared to search for the needle in the haystack (ie a steam pro near you) or at least find a contractor who will actually read the instructions and plumb it exactly as specified. And/or prepare to DIY some of it if you can't find anyone to pipe it correctly.
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If you can get a replacement block of that boiler (all sections assembled), you can easily switch it. The problem is that usually the remainder of the boiler is tired and an entirely new boiler doesn't cost much more than the replacement part.
Get an exact replacement and a fist full of money. If the original was installed properly with unions, all you need is muscle and a few tools.
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Well, I filled the boiler completely to the top. At least 30 of the heat exchanger buttons were weeping water. I could even hear one slow drip, but I couldn't see it.
I then flushed my salty water out of the boiler and re-filled to the correct level. I loosened the "heat shield" and started a heating cycle.
I figured I could peek in and see the steam escaping and determine my worst problems. It turns out that very dry steam is invisible!
There were a few buttons that did appear wet, so I assume these are my worst offenders.
I will only be able to reach a few of the leaks with the JB Weld coating.
Does anyone know of anything "sprayable" that I might be able to get down to the lower portions of the boiler sections that might slightly reduce my steam leaks?
I am thinking like a heavy spray paint, but it would have to expand and contract at roughly the same rate as the iron boiler sections, AND not be flammable.
If that is not feasible, is there anything like sprayable high temperature insulation - like where asbestos used to be used for fire protection of structural steel in buildings?
Thanks for all of the help everyone! I am trying to limp through until spring and just seeing if any of you experts have any good "band-aid" ideas.
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Everything else on the boiler looks pretty good to my (non-expert) eye. The original Dunkirk was installed in 2010. One section failed within 18 months. It was replaced under warranty and they said it looked like a bad casting.
I had numerous leaks in 2017, and had all of the sections replaced at that time.
It is hard to see in my poorly-lit photo in the OP, but the heat exchange buttons have some rust and mineral scale on them. I am pretty sure that some of that crap has dropped down onto my burners. Therefore, I will probably have to replace those after I can examine them after the boiler sections are removed.
Does anyone know how long burners are expected to last under normal operating conditions?
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you will need to fix the system problems that killed the old boiler in replacing the boiler. you should get at least a couple decades out of a boiler, usually far more. the things that kill a boiler are lots of makeup water from system leaks or system problems throwing liquid water out of vents. incorrect piping could pull the sections of the boiler apart through expansion and contraction. leaks could be bad vents, leaking valve packings, leaking returns or other piping. if water is getting thrown out of vents it could be a lot of things from the boiler not being skimmed to improper near boiler and possibly system piping.
if your water is particularly bad there are some inline treatment cartridges that can be used to treat the fill and makeup water but there should be little makeup water, lots of fresh water will kill the boiler even if it is treated.
there is stop leak made for boilers but you would have to get it to the parts that are leaking above the water lone somehow and it is temporary at best.
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Total loss...As the other guys said, I'd check on this several times a day. Before you read "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" 1992 The Bible, read "We got steam Heat" a great primer for anyone, especially a Homeowner.
It looks like you may have to be your own technical director given the paucity of good boiler guys out in The Cornfields. Read both these books and then find an honest, open minded plumber to do the install. Attitude is everything. Mad Dog
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I then flushed my salty water out of the boiler and re-filled to the correct level.
Salty???
If one casting failed after months, I would suspect all the other castings of having the same flaw. All those pins failing is a red flag to me.
Was the original failure like this, the pins?
I think you have a lemon. I personally wouldn’t spend another dollar replacing bad sections. The rest are likely to fail based on what you’ve seen so far.
Get a Peerless and make sure the sizing is done correctly
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Something must be going on. Pin leaks are not usually the most common failure.
Although Dunkirk may not be a most widely known name they have been making boilers for years. A lot of their boiler are rebadged and sold under many different names. I have seen their boilers last 50 years.
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How is your water quality? Do you use a water softener?
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A product by the name of "Boiler Liquid or equivalent.. This product was invented for exactly your situation. I have used it many times both commercially and residentially. This is the stuff. It's very important that you follow the directions. Limping along till you can change the boiler. Use it and get your ducks in order to have that boiler replaced.
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While you're getting your ducks in a row get a quart of sodium silicate pour it into a warm/hot but NOT boiling boiler raise the water lever to cover the leaks and fire it for a minute or two. When the leaks stop lower the level to operate. Or take @Intplm. 's suggestion. for a situation like this you don't have anything to lose.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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Thanks for the info on pin leaks. Knowing the common failure modes helps me figure out the reasons for my uncommon failure mode.
Our original boiler (1918) was coal fired, and was later converted to gas. It lasted 92 years before finally developing leaks at the base of the boiler section. However, it was the size of a VW Beetle, and took the guys half a day with sledge hammers to break it into pieces small enough to carry out of the basement. I assume that entire unit may have weighed 3-5x as much as our current unit.
I have now had three partial or full failures of the boiler sections in 14 years. Obviously, it appears that I do have something "wrong" with my system. I have never observed any of the problems that others above have mentioned (such as water out of the vents). Instead, I use essentially zero make-up water when the boiler sections are new, and then get small water losses after several years, that then go to major problems very quickly thereafter.
I think water chemistry is my most likely problem? Would that type of problem be the most common cause of pin leaks?
(I noticed the water was a little rusty when I purged the low-water cut-off on startup two years ago. I have run Rectorseal 8-way in my boiler since that time. However, I think I applied that correction too late. I couldn't keep the color purple very long at the start of this season, and had to add a little squirt of water about once per week.)
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you mentioned salty water prior,
someone asked if you are running a water softener,
are you?
known to beat dead horses0 -
Thanks Intplm and Grallert.
I wanted to try something like the sealant for car radiators. Should have known they made a product specifically for boilers!
The SDS for the Boiler Liquid says the active ingredients are crystalline silica and cellulose.
Is that the same type of product you are talking about Grallert, or is the "sodium silicate" as slightly different formulation of stop leak?
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I think it's the same thing with out the cellulose. I know it's an ingredient in lots of "boiler welds" but to be honest I'm no long sure which ones. It's used for lots of things and I've used it to seal cast iron radiator section leaks and small cracks.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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I would get your water quality checked before you put in a new boiler (only because you claim you don't have leaks at the sections after replacing them. Constant fresh water will eat those sections too). 3 failures in 14 years is crazy. In Mass we have huge issues with Burnham boiler sections failing but at least we are getting roughly 10-12 years out of them. 3 in 14 years is a lot.
You might want to check your chimney while your at it. Can't imagine how well the interior is doing with all that moisture going into it.
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@Fishin_Rod, one of your posts said you got about 7 years from the boiler. Did you get it new? If so, check the warranty. Some have a 10 year warranty on the heat exchanger.
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Would really like further explanation of "salty water". If your boiler feed is after a water softener, that's a big problem.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Some people love Burnhams. I am in MA as well. Nothing but trouble even on hot water they fail long before their time. Some contractors love them as it keeps them busy.😉
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There is a remote possibility that something is going on on the combustion side and corroding it from that side rather than the water side especially since the pins are rusting.
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ok, let's see a wide view of the boiler, and everything stored around it,
#don't move the paint cans or swimming pool chemicals
known to beat dead horses0 -
@EBEBRATT-Ed I was a Burnham fan big-time. When I was working as a sub for the gas company and doing the oil to gas conversions that's all we put in was Burnham Independence boilers for steam. Could knock out a boiler in 5-6 hours with another guy because we had a system. Half of our replacements were for snowmen's.
Not that we could do anything about it for the gas company work but I definitely at the time would not have put in so many for myself. They are so bad that when I do a PM now every boiler gets flooded first. I had to learn the hard way.
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Other people have also latched onto that phrase.
Poor choice of words on my part. I should have said "mineralized" water.
I am assuming that adding our city water 7x a week and boiling off a significant portion as steam up the flue, then the remaining water in the boiler sections becomes very heavily mineralized.
I do NOT know how often to flush that remaining water since I am dumping heat down my floor drain by that action and replacing with cold water.
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Replacing existing boiler water with fresh water at any time causes more corrosion, but in your case it probably doesn't matter much either way. We did latch onto the word "salty" because that is one of the last things you would want in your boiler.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Very interesting question, that I have not considered at all.
The chimney for the furnace exhaust vent is very tall. Maybe 40-45' tall? There is a wood fireplace on the ground floor that goes into a different set of flue tiles of the same chimney as the steam boiler in the basement. When you close the glass doors and open the vents in the face of the fireplace, the wood fire actually starts roaring. I have done a lot of camp fires as an outdoorsman all of my life. No open fire roars like that. The "chimney effect" is definitely greatly enhancing my wood fire.
Any chance the chimney effect is greatly enhancing my natural gas burners at the base of the boiler and the flames are reaching higher than their design height? (And that is increasing corrosion from the outside of the heat exchangers?)
That is a question miles above my pay grade.
P.S. The vent from the hot water heater does tie into the vent of the steam boiler prior to tying into the chimney flue. I think that is my only other confounding variable.
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That is also a very good question.
I deliberately try NOT to store any volatile chemicals in the boiler room.
Of course, that is not because I was smart enough to intentionally minimize chemical interactions with the hot iron in my boiler sections, but rather because leaving that stuff in a room that cycles from 50F to 100F multiple times over the course of a year is bad for the chemicals.
I just double-checked after reading your post and couldn't find any chemicals. I have also wracked my brain, but there were definitely some cobwebs in the corners of my brain while trying to think back over the past seven years!
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Changing the sections! That's a possibility with your above average level plumbing experience, but I will warn you that you should strongly consider what you are getting into and if it's truly a viable undertaking.
If you do not get the proper sections or enough sections or the correct push nipples/gaskets or the correct…blah blah blah on and on it can go. There are so many things that can go wrong and it is not a one man job. All of the things you have to have on hand before you start are very necessary as they are all integral with each other.
And as you go through all of the time and expense to get and install the sections, you will discover, especially in your case, a new boiler is your best alternative.
You mention your area has zero steam installers. So, if you are thinking of replacing sections you can surely replace your boiler with a lot less headaches.
Go ahead and get some boiler liquid as suggested above. Read the directions carefully and follow them accordingly. This should get you through those cold wind swept winters in Kansas and give you some time to get your boiler project [completed] in the warmer months.
There are a few DYI'ers on this sight who have done some very good work. You can be one of them.
@ethicalpaul comes to mind.
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Just throwing this out here, but check FB Marketplace for a used steam boiler that could get you by for a few years. I see so many in my neck of the woods listed for sale because a homeowner or business is switching to forced air (I know, crazy). Some with low miles too. I have seen a few that were only installed within the past 4 years. Good luck with everything.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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The thing is that the near boiler piping and the trim cost as much if not more than the boiler so you're not saving much and you get to spend it again when that boiler fails.
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I have seen boilers listed as low as $200, I think you will still come out ahead even with the new piping for the replacement. And again, I'm not talking about rusted out junkers. Literally, nice boilers with plenty of life left. But again, homeowners and this damn mini-split craze has got people ripping out good hydronic systems. Sigh.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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@Fishin_Rod If you decide to install it yourself. The best thing is to follow the manufacturers instruction to the letter. You will see these words often~~~"Near Boiler Piping"~~~. So do your home work and follow the directions. It will do you good.
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Searching through the Dunkirk manuals, found this little tidbit.
Based on the (not great) pictures, my failure mode looks most like "overheating".
I know that my LWCO was working, because that is how I initially found out I was losing water. The thermostat would be sending the "on" signal, but there was no fire. Burners would kick on while I was hand feeding the water.
The water level in the sight glass has been very low the last few days when I have gone in to refill. I think there is a chance that my LWCO is NOT working. Off to test now by draining while burners are firing.
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Thanks for all of the help, everyone!
I believe the band-aid worked and I may be able to limp through until spring.
I added two quarts of Boiler Liquid sealant (Hercules) to our 400,000 btu/hr boiler.
Our boiler normally operates at 2.2 psi. With the pin hole leaks, I was down to 0.3 psi.
I took off our main vent and installed a plug. I then filled the boiler almost to the top of the sections (well above my proper water level mark), because I had leaks above the water line. The sealant instructions are to add the product to hot water, so I ran a partial boiler cycle until my steam headers got hot. I liked that the boiler pressure went up to 1.0 psi on my partial cycle run - I assume due to plugging the main vent.
I then let the boiler cool off for ten minutes, and then added the product. Next, I topped off the water to the very top of my boiler sections.
This time the pressure went to 2.3 psi shortly after I started building steam. I was pleased to see that I was apparently getting some plugging action on the pinhole leaks.
While I was watching, my burners suddenly shut off. I have never observed a pressure cut off on my boiler. It seems that my pressuretrol was set to about 2.4 psi. After cooling for about three minutes, my boiler kicked back on, so I assumed I was still operating properly. I then gave the pressuretrol screw a few turns, and let the boiler run about 15 more minutes at a pressure of 2.6 psi. (I wanted to squeeze in some leak sealant at a higher pressure than my normal operating pressure.)
I was getting some steam to my radiators at this time - I assume just on the "space" created by turning steam to condensate in the radiators.
I started to get a little worried at this point about running my system "improperly", so I removed the plug and re-installed my main gas vent.
I then let the system run about 70 minutes to bring up the house temperature by five degrees. (The product instructions said to run as long of a boiler cycle as possible.)
I then turned the thermostat down six degrees and went to bed. In the morning, the house was at the set temperature, and the water level in the boiler was still above the top of the sight glass. I know the boiler had to run at least 1-2 cycles during the night, since our overnight low was 5F.
I have just now drained the boiler to the correct water level and started a new heating cycle. I will closely monitor my water losses going forward, but I am certain at this time that I have at least some partial plugging of my leaks!
I hope my plugging compounds can mostly last until the end of the heating season. Thanks again, everyone.
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