The "equalizer" is mis-named. It does nothing to equalize anything.
Comments
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When you ran your experiment and throttled the main steam riser exposing water in the wet return sight glass (I watched the vid) did you then throttle the equalizer to see if it changed the water level in the same glass?
I think you are right that the main balances the system but I think the equalizer also has a role in balancing … maybe a much smaller role??
My system has one main take off that splits:
Loop 1 returns and combines with the equalizer below boiler waterline, there is a check valve in between dry return drops and the equalizer/main drop.
Loop 2 splits and 2A 2b return on the opposite side with no equalizer interaction. The main drops are separated from the dry return drops with a check valve.
I removed the element in the check valve long ago when I did not know **** I was doing but I had water in my main (or dry return) and the only way to get it out was to remove the check valve…10-15 gallons poured out of a system that holds ~5-6.
if equalizer was critical to pressure balance I would have one side behaving nice and one side struggling? I do have 6’+ drops and operate at 1.5” water max so the water column equalizes just fine … would be interesting if I could see what level each side is at to prove/disprove your theory.
BTW…I did an experiment and my equalizer temp (measured 24” above boiler waterline never gets above 140F during a long heat cycle. I take that to mean that I am not getting any carryover and steam cannot heat that pipe because it is blocked by air. That or the water in the column below it are enough of a heat sink but I would think if a lot off carryover water was falling down that pipe it would be getting hotter.
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I don't have any problem talking about this topic in this thread or elsewhere.
I can't remember if I closed the equalizer valve while I was throttling the main steam supply to make the water get pushed out of my boiler, but I can tell you with certainty that it wouldn't matter.
The equalizer is like a hollow handle on a beer stein—completely unrelated to the level of beer in the glass. I stole this observation from Henry Gifford.
Please do install a sight glass on your water column, but don't expect anything interesting.
The one thing that might be interesting on your system is the check valves, which are a complete mystery to me as to why anyone would ever have installed them.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
"The equalizer is like a hollow handle on a beer stein—completely unrelated to the level of beer in the glass. I stole this observation from Henry Gifford."
The problem I have with this example is the fire is only under the boiler, not the handle.
The earth's atmosphere is a huge equalizer but you can measure different atmospheric pressures in different places. And how far away is the Sun ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
I don’t understand your point there. If there is something you can show me the equalizer does during boiler operation, I asked about a dozen times to see or hear about it with zero takers
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
I guess my point was what was your point ? Sure the equalizer looks like the handle on a beer stein, so ?
Formally it was called a "Bleeder" and was (is) relevant to some systems. The LAoSHR describes it and it sounded reasonable to me.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System2 -
What exactly is meant by "sloshing around" in this case?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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my point is that I showed it has zero affect. This whole “pushes on the other side to prevent the boiler pushing out water” is a total fiction
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
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I see the language in the patent listing from 2002, but 17 years later, Mr. Gifford replied on my thread about the Hartford loop the following, from this post
(my emphasis)As for equalizing the pressure, it definitely does this. But, the pressure between the top and bottom of the boiler is already equal (neglecting the weight of the water). Connecting a pipe between the top and bottom of the boiler equalizes the pressure as much as hollowing out the handle of a beer mug equalizes the pressure between the top and bottom of the mug. So, I see this "function" as useless. What prevents the steam from pushing water back out the return (much) is the (almost) equal steam pressure applied to the returns at the drips.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Hello everyone, quick question regarding the equalizer. Can it have 90’s in it, rather than going straight down…need to catch the pipe going back to boiler with two 90’s to get more swing as I am about 2 inches off laterally and trying to make use of the 90’s I have to line things up. Would that hinder condensate return from the dropped header (create water hickup). Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
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I would use 45s if possible. Try to avoid 90s above the water line. Below the water line anything goes.
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I used 45s but in reality unless your water quality is total garbage there won’t be any water in there anyway.
Normal water never goes up to the header, only oily or very dirty
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
I'm happy that this thread is still going. Larger buildings have feed or lift pumps. But pumps and pumping add expense to steam. One also sees steam injectors which supposedly waste steam. But not heat? I wonder about using a subcritical steam jet to ensure that condensate returns to boiler? A tiny compression ratio may require less steam than a traditional injector?
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Some of us revere The Deadmen and the trials & tribulations they went through to keep Americans warm and healthy over the last centuries. We all stand on their broad shoulders. Mad Dog
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I don’t think it’s disrespectful to observe and report facts. I'm sure their broad shoulders can handle not being right about everything.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
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the facts aren’t mine, I just report them.
If you see a flaw in them I always welcome a correction.
I showed that pressure doesn’t affect the waterline in a one pipe system.
If you see a problem with my process or reporting please share. Or you can keep attacking me personally, as you have repeatedly done despite my continued attempts to be civil.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
I see some disagreement here but no personal "attacks". Sometimes men disagree.
Strongly.
Some speak out. Some just move on.
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If one is going to make bold assertions, one must have THICK skin. Mad Dog
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It's thick enough. Anyone can see what I take and how I respond. Anyway if you have any questions or want to point out where I'm mistaken, just let me know.
I see some disagreement here but no personal "attacks".
There's been a long history, Ed. In this one he just passive aggressively made a snipe. No real harm.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
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Paul...you were welcome to come hang at the Molly Wee a few weeks ago...all were invited. If I had a personal dislike of ANYONE here, I would have made it invite only...no? By the way, you said you were joining us? All good. Mad Dog
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yes I planned on joining but I wrote in the thread that I couldn’t make it.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Some boilers may be able to steam without the equalizer, some may not.
I keep thinking about the Weil McLain video that has been kicking around for years the one with the boiler piped in glass pipe. It is probably on this site somewhere.
That video showed gob of water leaving the boiler and entering the header.
Many old boilers had a supply and return pipe and no header or equalizer and worked fine. Probably because they were oversized for the load or had a large steam disengaging space or both.
To me it's not worth the risk to not install an equalizer. The cost of going back to put one in is too high.
We have all seen boiler on this site piped like crap that worked.
The blurry line is when are you able to cheat a little on an install?
That is something there is no answer too.
Every job is different.
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psycology? or phisics-ology?
are we sure 5 psi, on the greater surface area in a boiler, doesn't have more push than 5 psi in a 3/4 / 1 inch return drop?
pot stirred,
known to beat dead horses0 -
watch the video and that question is answered. The pressure at the end of main drip is the same as the pressure at the boiler.
I never said don’t install an equalizer, I said it doesn’t do what some people and books say it does.
It’s a good header drain. But the WM video is not how boilers work
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
What's the frictional resistance of the steam main and the resistance of the return piping?
The 5 lb pressure at the boiler will be more than the pressure at the return.
This is the stuff that calculates the "A Dimension".
But are we talking about different things?
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those are immeasurably small and don’t affect anything. The A dimension is a myth.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I see at least three things or three benefits of the equalizer.
A drip for the header, especially for a drop header. In which case you could call it a drip.
The Hartford loop needs it to work correctly, by providing a vacuum break. Otherwise the boiler's water could just get siphoned out with a wet return leak.
Providing multiple access points to the wet return to the steam side of things allowing gravity to keep the water level more constant throughout the wet return system.
A 'False Water Line' setup uses an additional equalizer to work correctly.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System2 -
What about all the mains that flood through the ends of returns when the boilers make pressure? We see apartment houses doing this several times a month.
Take a big system, set the pressure a four pounds and watch!
Heck, if it's a myth, we'll just run the boiler at 11 pounds and enjoy 240 degree radiators! You mean they bought all those radiator sections for nothing? Lying engineers conspiring with salesmen to sell all that iron?
And we won't even mention water-logged traps.
"This is not intended to be passive aggressive, triggering or in any manner argumentative."
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All these issues were discussed earlier in this thread. The proof is in the video for any who want to see it
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Too bad..
Great time. I'm a retired drinker, but I would've bought you a few rounds....Mad Dog
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Every time I see this come back up to the front of the line, I laugh…. I had this debate with Paul because I learned what was in the books so long ago that it was as if that dimension "A" and the Equalizer were second nature to me. And when you know something… YOU KNOW IT!
Paul's experiment and video showed me that on a small residential system there is not much pressure drop from one end of the main to the other. That whole steam chest of the boiler pushing water out the return backwards did not need 28" of dimension "A" to force the water back into the boiler.
But if the pipes are restricted with years of sediment, and we are talking about a rather large building, then that dimension “A” can certainly help the water get back to the boiler. But when doing the testing on a small residential system, at such low pressures, that is well cared for, and probably has no sediment in any of the wet returns, then you basically have a U tube manometer with equal pressure on both ends of the main, at the boiler and past the last radiator, at the last drop into the return.
Paul finally made me change my opinion of the whole thing. Those pictures in the book are only illustrations. They did not use glass pipes and measure the pressure differences to see inside those pipes. They made educated guesses based on what they found with previous systems. Some of those systems were built before the Carbon Club members made the 1.5 PSI rule that we all use today. I might guess that 50 to 100 PSI steam might have a bit more friction traveling through some of those old steam pipes and that the dimension "A" may have been more that 28" to overcome the 2 or 3 PSI difference on those older 100 PSI systems. Ya never really know where those old beliefs, guides and rules came from, and why they are still in use today.
There is a story about how the railroad track gauge (width) is based on the Roman Chariot wheel base. As the road ways were traveled by these chariots they made groves and ruts as many carts rolled over the same path over and over. If you designed a chariot with a different wheelbase, your wheels would soon fail trying to find their way into the existing groves. If you didn't want your carts to have constant wheel failures you adopted the standard wheelbase as all the chariots. This lasted for centuries and when the railways and steam locomotives were introduced, the existing wheelbase was already an engineering standard and they had no reason to change it.
Is this truth or an old urban legend? Who knows? It is a good story to explain the odd dimension of 4' 8.5" or 143.5 cm as the standard rail gauge in the USA. Such a strange number to use. And Roman Chariots were never used in the 2 and 3 centuries in the Americas. We weren't even called the Americas yet! But you can easily fit a team of 2 horses side by side within that 4' 8.5" wheelbase so the horses didn't lose their footing in the ruts.
But now that all the tracks are 4' 8.5" wide, then all future tracks will be 4' 8.5" even if there is a better dimension for future needs. It is that way because that is the way we learned it. That weird number is kind of like Dimension “A” in all the old engineering books.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I sort of get the feelings, without doing proper experiments, that there is one set of rules for all systems. Small residential to large commercial. Well piped, under pipe, over piped..... Take a very large commercial system, maybe under piped and with very dirty water. Good possibility there will be a significant pressure drop by the time the steam gets to the end of the main.
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You can walk around all day with your jeans on an no belt and your pants won't fall down.
But if you start working overhead and sucking in your gut your pants may fall down.
(Unless your fat like me)
So I wear a belt.
Thats how i think about equalizers.
You never know when you might need one.
Who wants to take the chance??
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Ed my good friend ( @EBEBRATT-Ed I have to specify because there are 3 eds in this thread!) , no one in this thread ever said not to have an equalizer. The only point of it was that it does act to equalize pressure in order to keep water in the boiler while it's running. It makes a nice header drip which I believe the real old books called it.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el2 -
" Why utilize a Hartford Loop at all? Can’t the return line simply be brought into the boiler at a point below the 2-inch mark? Technically, the answer is “yes,” and prior to the implementation of the Hartford Loop, this was a fairly common practice. However, when installers did this, any pressure within the boiler itself would result in water being pushed out of the boiler and directly to the return. Even with the installation of check valves to help eliminate this condition, they often failed in the open position, ending with the same results. So the concept of a pipe to equalize the pressure was realized and implemented, and resulted in water staying in the boiler. "
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System2
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