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The "equalizer" is mis-named. It does nothing to equalize anything.

2

Comments

  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,951
    Maybe more then just semantics. If only real function is to drain the header, then there should be no need to have the "equalizer" connected to the wet return. In theory you can connect the wet return to one boiler return tapping and the equalizer to a boiler return tapping on the other side. @Jamie Hall will explain how the equalizer works in tandem with the Hartford loop (above my pay grade). But if you also do not believe in the benefits of the Hartford Loop, then there is no functional reason (acc. to @ethicalpaul's reasoning) to connect the header drain and the wet return. 
    ethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583
    edited March 2023
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with questioning why we do things.

    Nothing at all.

    This forum is about helping others as well as helping others understand how things work and why we do what we do.  It's education and it's important!



    A vertical header on a new steam boiler that doesn't meet the manufacturers requirements on the other hand is a problem and should have been fixed.  But some feel it's acceptable.   


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    STEAM DOCTORethicalpaulCLamb
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694
    Matt_67 said:

    @ethicalpaul - Would you agree that the equalizer has a function once the water level is below the weir of the Hartford loop?

    No I don't think so. The pressure is still the same whether the equalizer is there or not, do you agree?

    I have to say, this whole idea of the purpose of the equalizer being related to the water level in the hartford loop, or being related to siphoning, seems to have been invented in this thread since I think people must be agreeing that the equalizer has nothing to do with changing the pressure anywhere in the system. :shrug:
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694

    Maybe more then just semantics. If only real function is to drain the header, then there should be no need to have the "equalizer" connected to the wet return. In theory you can connect the wet return to one boiler return tapping and the equalizer to a boiler return tapping on the other side. @Jamie Hall will explain how the equalizer works in tandem with the Hartford loop (above my pay grade). But if you also do not believe in the benefits of the Hartford Loop, then there is no functional reason (acc. to @ethicalpaul's reasoning) to connect the header drain and the wet return. 

    There is no need to connect the equalizer to the wet return since many boilers look like my second photo in my original post in this thread--no equalizer at all. So yes, hooking it back on any side of the boiler is fine--topologically speaking, it is the same--connecting the header to the steam chamber/water in the boiler, which is a connection that of course already exists.

    That's why the equalizer doesn't do anything related to pressure--it is a redundant connection to one that is already there.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583
    Actually...
    Is the equalizer just a vent to keep the wet return from siphoning out of the boiler?


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694
    ChrisJ said:

    Actually...
    Is the equalizer just a vent to keep the wet return from siphoning out of the boiler?


    No. It is delivering steam chamber pressure to the wet return, just like the steam chamber's connection to the wet return already does. It doesn't keep the wet return from siphoning anywhere.

    Steam is condensing and pouring condensate into the wet return far end constantly, and combined with the pressure there and the resulting height of that water column, water isn't getting pushed out of the boiler beyond that unless the pressure differential rises or the king valve is closed while it's steaming. Ask me how I know that one!
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    andersonj56
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    Hey...Abbbbbbbooootttt! Who's on First? "  Mad 🐕 Dog
  • Matt_67
    Matt_67 Member Posts: 284
    edited March 2023
    The way I see it once the water drops below the weir of the tee the equalizer prevents further water loss regardless of wet return pressure. If the wet return failed and was open to atmosphere it would allow the supply pressure to be relieved through the break without forcing the water out of the boiler as well. Admittedly it’s not going to be an issue with a proper install on the simple one pipe system you drew.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694
    edited March 2023
    @Matt_67 please refer to the second picture on my first post on this thread where I removed the equalizer. There isn't any way for the water to drop from the weir of the hartford loop unless the boiler runs almost completely dry.

    With the equalizer present as in your drawing, the equalizer is going to provide steam chamber pressure redundantly to the wet return, still pushing water out of the leak. No change due to the equalizer.

    But anyway, I don't think I ever read anywhere that the equalizer is there to somehow reduce pressure in the case of a leaky wet return :smile:

    And @Mad Dog_2 I would love to hear your ideas of how the equalizer can equalize anything when the same pressure is already present in boiler, header, and at the boiler's connection to the wet return. Or if you see a flaw in my drawings, please say so. That would be great to hear instead of the barbs at me, thanks!

    @EdTheHeaterMan I think there is truth in your post above, but in fact The Lost Art and lots of people currently think the equalizer is equalizing some pressure somewhere in normal residential boilers (not just 50psi ones), see the quoted reference in my first post. It doesn't seem like it is, so that's why I posted this.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    I can't believe this INANE conversation is still going on....I'm all for spirited and exhaustive debate but this is ridiculous 🙄 and circular....No disrespect brother Paulie but habe you ever heard of the 1980s hit  song "Too much time on your hands!!" By Styx?  Ha ha. Do you really wanna "die on  this Hill? "  This was  established Fact 150 years ago..atleast by Deadman smarter than All of Us except Dan, Steamhead , Noel Mudough (RIP) Gerry/Steve, Dave and a small Cadre of Others (no offense If I didn't mention ya) .
    Paulie, I'm really glad you are so engaged in this exercise, really...its great to joist and debate theory but, some of us gotta put boilers in today or repipe a Radiant manifold..This has become a bit of  a 3 Ring  🎪 circus...once again  no disrespect man.  I'm moving on...Not going to try to reinvent the wheel....Mad Dog  
    hot_rodHot_n_Cold
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694
    So you didn’t want to tell me where my diagrams were erroneous to prove what the equalizer does I guess!

    sorry but a list of names and a number of years is not a strong argument. 

    I’m sorry you don’t wish to help me understand.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    Mad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583
    edited March 2023
    Mad Dog_2 said:

    I can't believe this INANE conversation is still going on....I'm all for spirited and exhaustive debate but this is ridiculous 🙄 and circular....No disrespect brother Paulie but habe you ever heard of the 1980s hit  song "Too much time on your hands!!" By Styx?  Ha ha. Do you really wanna "die on  this Hill? "  This was  established Fact 150 years ago..atleast by Deadman smarter than All of Us except Dan, Steamhead , Noel Mudough (RIP) Gerry/Steve, Dave and a small Cadre of Others (no offense If I didn't mention ya) .
    Paulie, I'm really glad you are so engaged in this exercise, really...its great to joist and debate theory but, some of us gotta put boilers in today or repipe a Radiant manifold..This has become a bit of  a 3 Ring  🎪 circus...once again  no disrespect man.  I'm moving on...Not going to try to reinvent the wheel....Mad Dog  


    150 years ago many couldn't read or write and blood-letting was still going on.
    But yeah, smarter than all of us. Perhaps some of us, but no, not all of us.

    The Hartford loop didn't exist 150 years ago, it came about around 104 years ago.


    Calling something a 3 ring circus is very disrespectful even if you put "no disrespect" after it.
    The first rule on this forum is to be kind and I personally think it's a good rule.

    Both education and exchanging information is ALWAYS important. It's how we learn, it's how we improve.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaulMad Dog_2
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,951
    I think that I would have to agree that @ethicalpaul is raising a very pertinent point. In theory, there are practical ramifications to his point (does that make any sense). There are many scenarios where piping would be significantly easier (hence cheaper) , if header drain could be piped separately from wet return.  Would obviously risk manufacturer's warranty, but that is really customer's chose (we all know that track record with residential boiler warranties being honored). 
    ethicalpaul
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,951
    edited March 2023
    There is another issue at hand and I think that @ethicalpaul raises a point that many might consider heresy . Are we to assume that the dead men were always correct? 
    ethicalpaul
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265

    So you didn’t want to tell me where my diagrams were erroneous to prove what the equalizer does I guess!

    sorry but a list of names and a number of years is not a strong argument. 


    I’m sorry you don’t wish to help me understand.
    @ethicalpaul, I support the honest asking of questions in the pursuit of knowledge as you do here. I am convinced that you would be quite happy to learn what you are missing here and have it explained in detail as would I.

    We do get that contractors must install to specs and the specs say put in an equalizer. Ok. It is quite fine for that to be the end of the discussion for a contractor and there is no reason for them to view your questions as being critical of their doing that. We get that they really don't have time for science projects. But at the same time being interested in the process beyond specifications pursuing a more fundamental understanding is not a crime. It is a good thing.

    Higher pressures in these residential systems was never in the original plan, and came with the switch to intermittent fire and boilers running wide open on high for way longer than needed or appropriate. The original boilers were really big too...they just never ran on high! It would appear that several methods then came along to cope with that. I too have questioned whether some of these are really necessary and have met with similar resistance as I'm sure you have observed.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
    ethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583

    There is another issue at hand and I think that @ethicalpaul raises a point that many might consider hearsay. Are we to assume that the dead men were always correct? 

    I certainly don't.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Mad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583
    Perhaps @HGifford can comment?


    Here's a previous comment from him.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaul
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,018
    This whole post reminds me of a book called Pumping Away, how that author had the audacity to take on an entire industry of all knowing boiler engineers about expansion tank placement.
    How dare he!
    Wait until the book banners in Florida get a of that wokeness
    woke: a state of being aware
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ethicalpaulScottSecorRich_49
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694
    edited March 2023
    Thanks for quoting that, Chris! I think I skipped right past that second point Mr. Gifford made because at the time (3 years ago wow) I was focusing on "does the hartford loop do anything today?" and I hadn't grasped yet what the equalizer (wasn't) doing.

    Mr. Gifford's statement about the hollow mug handle is exactly what I am saying in this thread, and I'm relieved I'm not the only one who has been troubled by the accepted idea of what the equalizer does.

    I really like that he said "What prevents the steam from pushing water back out
    the return (much) is the (almost) equal steam pressure applied to the returns at the drips." which I had also observed and stated in this thread where I called the wet return drip in my drawings "a manometer".

    I'm in your debt for digging this up

    I do want to add that I don't advocate not installing an "equalizer" as indicated on installation manuals--it is good to have. I just wanted to get to the bottom of what it actually accomplishes regarding pressure (the thing it's named for).

    It has another good purpose I thought of, which is to ensure there is no air trapped at the top of the hartford loop, which could occur depending on how the system was refilled after draining, if there was no equalizer.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    Mad Dog_2
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,018
    Question authority is another good motto, becoming more important in these times.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ethicalpaulttekushan_3
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
    I was definitely raised to question anything and everything written down. Question, not attack. Very large difference. If the driving force is the quest for the truth, then no honest questions from anyone, skilled in the subject or not, are unacceptable. But if the intent from the start is to find fault in the person or the work that approach betrays a very much needed respect for the work of those who came before. An incredible amount was done with far fewer tools to work with and far more sweat. I, for one, have learned a great deal from that.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
    ethicalpaulCLamb
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,249

    I DIY.
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694
    edited March 2023
    @clammy I know you speak plainly and straightforward, and I always appreciate that. I'm going to assume your tone is not as angry toward me as it appears when I read it :sweat_smile:

    After all, I got my boiler from Henry's based on your excellent suggestion and I have always been thankful for that, and I have always admired your work that I see on Ezzy's jobs that get posted here, and I am also thankful for you taking the time to respond here, and in so many other threads where other homeowners are in need of help.

    Now having said that, I never advocated for not installing an equalizer. Please re-read my original post on this thread if you can, I am simply trying to accurately understand and share understanding of what the equalizer actually does.

    Setting aside for a moment the right vs wrong of this particular case, let me ask you:

    Don't you think that your, and every contractor's value in the marketplace is based on your accurate understanding of the technologies you use? Wouldn't you rather know the truth of any given aspect of the devices you work with rather than a potentially-mistaken idea?

    That is my only goal here, is to hopefully improve understanding which certainly can't hurt the industry, can it? If I'm wrong, I'm just another idiot with an opinion, no harm. But if I'm right, then many many pros in this industry have an incorrect understanding of something they are piping every day, and isn't it better if that understanding is corrected?

    Thanks again everyone

    PS: many boilers do not have an equalizer. Stay tuned I'm going to put a valve on my equalizer and we'll all see what happens, should be interesting!

    PPS: @clammy I know you understand pressures in a steam system and how they flow. Do you see something the equalizer is doing that could possibly affect the height of water in the end-of-main drip?
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    STEAM DOCTORGGrossLarry Weingarten
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,713
    WMno57 said:
    You have no idea what you are talking about @WMno57. Building a steam boiler with Legos is a bad idea. Building a boiler with with plastic parts will melt the first time you fire the thing up. This is one boiler that was on the 6 O'clock News where two boiler workers were involved with commissioning a Lego Boiler. One Died and the other was seriously burned that day.



    ...Film At Eleven
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
    WMno57PC7060
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,159
    I am somewhat reminded of a battle regarding the correct naming for returns... which, as you may have noticed, I've given up on. There are two sides to all this. If one understands what it does and how it works, and the effect of problems with it, then it doesn't matter what you call it. However, if you want to describe it or give comments on its operation, it helps to be able to come up with a useful and easy to remember name which people can and do agree on...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694
    edited March 2023
    Just for the record, I do think the name is inaccurate, but I also think the accepted thinking about what it does for a steam system is inaccurate, and I judge that to be much more important.

    There were some names mentioned earlier in the thread. The ones that jumped to my mind were "header drain" or "header drip" but I don't realistically think it will ever have a different name. I'll just be happy if people are aware of what it's not doing (if it indeed isn't doing it).
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
    “All pressures are equal. But some are more equal than others.”

    I view the Hartford loop as the static water column reference. There IS a difference in pressure from boiler’s top to bottom: the static height. It’s exactly the same P gradient inside the boiler and the system piping but only when the boiler is not firing. Steam generation, as you know, is a highly and almost magically turbulent dynamic affair; so is its counterpart, condensation (though it is rarely as attention grabbing as the boil). So there’s this ball of expansion right in the middle of the boiler yet the ever important static gradient still exists but is lost in all the energetic noise. Likewise the system piping and active condensation, with its ability to create localized vacuum/pressure gradients, along with air and friction– can distort the natural water column P gradient out in the system and as it appears at the boiler return. The apparent water line can be unreliable evidence of the boiler’s static water column gradient. Add the wide variables of hand firing and ya just could see the odds of a boiler explosion, um, expanding. 

    Serenity. The loop provides a serene environment to provide a real gage of the static height of the water line just as the sight glass does. Introduce a tapping point in the vicinity of the intended water line (be it traditional or Gifford) et voilà– a simple safety device that doesn’t break!

    To reiterate the loop is a tapped reference static water column. If you piped it in glass, @ethicalpaul, you’d have a giant sight glass merely tapped for a return water path chosen for least potential mayhem regardless of all other conditions. 

    As far as how others view this post, I view each camp as having valid points based on personality type. It takes all kinds as they used to say, viz:

    Victor Frankl’s “Man’s Search For Meaning Through Subtle Steam Piping Techniques”
    vs
    ”Dr. Strangelove: How I Stopped Worrying and Learned To Love The Hartford Loop”

    If nothing else I’m now wary of using the “E-word”  :D
    terry
    ethicalpaulLarry Weingarten
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,226
    What about considering E a wimpy injector?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,018
    edited March 2023
    Could the Weil glass piped steam boiler trailer demonstrate this, Tim?

    Or repipe it so it could :) Please

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovFq-RPdK1M
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Matt_67
    Matt_67 Member Posts: 284
    Somehow I'm caught up in this :) . I just did a little experiment with some vinyl tube to replicate a hartford loop. Once the boiler water level falls below the weir of the hartford loop tee, any additional pressure differential causes the water already in the wet return to be pushed out. So the equalizer ensures that once the boiler level has fallen to that critical point, system pressures, regardless of what they are, have no effect on boiler water level. Gravity keeps the water in place because the pressures are equalized. It is certainly a vital part of the hartford loop, regardless of how we feel about the usefulness of it. And to me, even if the hartford loop only gives our low water cutoff an additional 15 or 20 minutes to dry off and disable the burner it is worth it.
    ttekushan_3Mad Dog_2dabrakemanDan Foley
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 1,215

    Yep What Matt said. The equalizer works with the Hartford Loop to keep the boiler wet longer in the event of a return line leak. The header pressure holds down the water below the loop in the boiler to keep it from backing out if the return springs a large leak.

    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    Mad Dog_2Hot_n_Cold
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,713
    edited March 2023

    Loooks like someone at heatingHelp.com has reworked the menu bar from the top to be included in the box below.

    I hope I can figure it out. 🤣.

    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,276

    Just let me know if you have questions about this upgrade. The formatting tool is the paragraph button on the left. You can highlight text for bold, italics, etc. And the other buttons for emoji, photos, etc. are on the bottom.

    President
    HeatingHelp.com
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,694

    The header pressure holds down the water below the loop in the boiler to keep it from backing out if the return springs a large leak.

    This is a very edge case, which is fine. Has it ever been spoken of or written of before this thread?

    It seems like people are working hard to retroactively come up with other possible other uses for the equalizer that are separate from the purpose that I and I think everyone else understood it to be (based on much of the feedback in this thread), that I quoted in my first post.

    Or I might have missed it, let me know 😅

    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,713
    edited March 2023

    And since @Mad Dog_2 is tired ot this this discussion, and @ChrisJis too busy, perhaps we can get to something more important, like changing the name for the B&G Flo-Control to something more appropiate

    Like the RVTTSWFWCNR.

    That means the Red Valve Thingy That Stops Flow When Circulator Not Running.

    pronounced: Rêvit-swif-Wik-Ner

    And Speaking of Circulators. Why aren't they called Pumps. That is what they do. So what is this whole thing about calling them something other than what they are… It is a PUMP, no matter how much water it circulates.

    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
    Mad Dog_2Rich_49PC7060