Head loss Calculation - Pump Sizing - 1 pipe monoflo system
Hi, i need help
I'm trying to figure out the head loss. but i got lost lol.
Hydroterm Boiler - Input 95,000 BTU/HR - 76,000 BTU/HR
One loop system - not sure if its a monoflow system.
One Zone, Main loop 3/4 (60 linear ft), Branch out to cast iron radiators with 1/2 - total of 12 radiators assume 10ft off the main loop.
when i purchase the house they change the circulating pump. since then some radiators stopped heating up. they just get warm (the furthers ones). i feel like my taco 007 its too small. I'm in the process to replace it with a 010 or 014 but i can't figure out how to calculate the head loss.
according to Taco - my head loss is 21.
i did get the GMP 76,000/10,000 = 7.6GMP
but on this discussion that i found on this blog,
circulator sizing for 1 pipe monoflo tee system — Heating Help: The Wall
they also calculate the head loss on the main loop and the branch to radiators.
using their calculation main loop gives me 4.6 head loss and 4.94 head loss on the branch. total 9. but i know my taco 007 should be in range. but its not.
What PSI should my system have, 12PSI or 15PSI. it's a basement and a 1st floor
i recently change the Expansion tank. but i did not let some air out, i believe it comes at 40PSI.
Can someone help me PLEASEEEE
Comments
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ok perfect, Thank you.. how do i calculate the volume??
another question. what PSI should i set my system to, 12PSI or 15PSI. its a basement (where the boiler is) and first floor.
also i replaced the expansion tank, i just realize i never check the pressure of the expansion tank, i was reading that i need to lower the PSI to match my system.
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Why was the pump replaced? It would be helpful to learn the model of the pump that was removed. If the system worked satisfactorily with that pump, that could be a starting point?
What is the Btu rating of the boiler?
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Need more information. Is the monoflow loop 60' out and back? You also need the EDR of all the radiation to determine the flow volume. And the branch piping to the rads is it 1/2" 10' out and back?
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im trying to figure out what is the cause of some radiators not heating up. Before buying the house i was renting the same house. One day the pump failed, the owner replaced it. Since i was only renting i did not pay attention of the old pump. After that it’s when the radiators stop working. I don’t know if it might be the pressure on the system or the pump. And since i own the house now. Im trying to fix it.
76,000 btu and current pump 007
i called various technicians none of them wants to troubleshoot the problem. Their only option it’s to replace the boiler. The boiler it’s not leaking0 -
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Don't lower the factory pressure in the expansion tank. It should be factory charged at 12 PSI If it is lower than 12 PSI then you can add air pressure.
As far as a one story home over a basement, 12 PSI is more than enough, but i would not lower it.
And you want to be sure you have a one pipe monoflo® system to measure the pump head requirements. Look for these tee fittings
The one I circled looks like it could be a 3/4" thru with a 1/2" branch like you have described.
@paul3x16 Said: One Zone, Main loop 3/4 (60 linear ft), Branch out to cast iron radiators with 1/2 - total of 12 radiators assume 10ft off the main loop.
This tells me that you have only 40,000 BTU heat capacity on that one loop, and require only 4 gallons per minute for that loop (not the 10 GPM you indicate on your pump curve chart).
That means your boiler is oversized for the system, unless you have a second loop on the same single zone thermostat. It is possible that you had a B&G 100 pump at one time, and for the most part a Taco 007 will do most jobs.
If your system was a poorly designed monoflo® then the B&G 100 may have pushed a tad more flow rate, like maybe as much as 5 GPM. That may have been a little noisy but that noise may have been in 3/4" main pipe in the basement and was not transmitted to the first floor pipes.
if you do not have tee fittings like the picture above for each radiator (or another brand of similar design that would have an arrow embossed on the side) then you may have series loop design.
Here is the difference
Each red dot indicates a monoflo® tee and both the supply and return are connected to the same larger "one pipe"
Each section of baseboard radiator is connected to the next one on the line. Many times when the radiators are not physically next to each other, the pipe at one end drops below the floor then rises ul at the next radiator to continue the loop. Like this
There are other ways to pipe a radiator system also. Can you tell if you have the special Diverter tees or Monoflo® tee fittings anywhere or if you have a series loop? This can help determine the best way to fix your system
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Hydrotherm Boiler - Input 95,000 BTU/HR - output 76,000 BTU/HR
main loop 3/4" - 60' out and back
branch piping 1/2" - average 20' out and back total of 12 radiators.
the width of the house is 24' the pipes goes in the center, lenth of the house 52'
this are the type of radiators that i have, i dont know how to get the EDR but i found the following
6x 8sections - BTU @ 180°F: 3,056
5x 16sections
1x 36sections
i check the expantion tank its 12 PSI, and my system is also at 12 PSI.
my system looks like the one-pipe monoflo design that you suggested. i did not see those fittings that you showed me. instead i found the following. its not very clear. BTW i have two systems, its a 2 family house. i have to boilers, one boiler for the basement and 1st floor (12 radiators), and the other one for the 2floor (9).. thats why you see 2 pipes.. i believe this pipes are returning.
its hard to tell since the house was build 1960, I'm going to try to take a better picture tomorrow.
i think some of them look like this
Thank you for the help
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B4 you change the pump, you should remove the expansion tank from the system. You have to check and adjust the air pressure with the tank not having any water pressure on the tank. Then bleed the entire system and start the boiler.
Monoflo system if that is what you have are difficult to bleed you may have to go back and forth and bleed the rads 2-3 times. 10' of pipe on a Monoflo system is a little long so that could be the reason and you may need a larger pump for that reason.
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the living room (24’x14’), radiator (81”) it’s the furthest form the loop. At least 15’ away from the main loop. Was not heating up. But I do think is the pump. But I don’t know how to size it or which one to get. Last week I drain the system and made sure the psi matches the expansion tank. 12psi. After I did all this. Finally the radiator form the living room was getting little warm, not hot like the other ones.
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You have the Diverter Tee system commonly known as Monoflo® (the same way the Royal brand gelatin, is called JELLO).
That said your pump head is determined by this rule of thumb.
In a post herein from 2002 someone suggested that you need to add 12 feet for each Diverter tee on the loop. I'm not sure that is correct but here is the comment
Still, the way I was taught (a former Bell and Gossett representative who used "milli-inches" as units of pressure drop in the classic B&G way) was to take the sum of the main circuit (pipe, elbows, normal and MonoFlow tees), PLUS the longest branch run and emitter pressure drop, plus the boiler. In your case what you figured was straight pipe, 50% for fittings (a guess let's admit it) and a pressure drop of 4 feet per 100 feet of pipe. You have to add the cumulative MonoFlow fitting losses to that plus the longest branch is how I was taught. (That was in 1977-78 by the way.)
So your 60 feet round trip for the one pipe loop plus the 20 feet for the longest radiator branch would be 80 feet.
- 80 feet longest run
- add 50% to this
- then add 12 feet for each tee on the loop
- multiply by .04
- That is your pump head.
[80 + 40 + (12ft x 12 tees)] x .04 =
(80 + 40 + 144) x .04 =
264 x .04 = 10.56 head
I think that is a little high, so I looked at the Cv rating of one tee fitting 3/4" x 1/2" which is 4.3 when the 1/2" branch is closed off. That means that you can get a little over 4 GPM to pass through that tee when there is a pressure drop of 1 PSI. Now 1 PSI is equal to 2.31 feet of head, and 3/4" pipe handles 4 GPM in a "quiet" hydronic system anyway. Now with that information in hand and the fact that all the diverter tee fittings are the same, then the 1 PSI drop is already handled by the first tee and all the other tee fittings will not have any smaller orifice for the water to pass thru, Is it logical to do the calculation this way?
- 80 feet longest run
- add 50% to this
- multiply by .04
- then add 2.31 ft head for all the tee fittings
- That is your pump head.
(80 + 40) x .04 + 2.31 =
(120) x .04 + 2.31=
4.8 + 2.31 = 7.11 head
And since none of the 1/2" branches off the tee fittings will be capped off, then is it fair to say that this Cv will not even be a factor? And the rule of thumb of adding only 50% to get the total equivalent length just means that I'm calculating just a bit high on the pump head? And I don't need no stinkin' milli-inches here.
Since the weakest link in the chain is the 3/4" pipe for the main one pipe loop around the building and a 3/4" pipe can only move about 40,000 BTUs at 4 GPM, then your heating system capacity is 40,000 BTUh with an oversized boiler with a NET output of 64,600 or 380 NET SqFt of radiation@ 170° I hope you don't have more than 380 SqFt of radiation.
I have not run into this problem in the past, so I am just theorizing on the pump head calc. There are others that can give a more concise answer with the numbers you provided Lets hope they chime in
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@paul3x16 Said: I checked the expansion tank its 12 PSI, and my system is also at 12 PSI.
That makes sense that the water pressure o one side of the tank (connected to the boiler) and the other side of the tank are both the same. It's the same tank! That will not tell you what the air pressure charge of the empty tank is. If the tank lost air and only has 6 PSI in it empty, then when you add 12 PSI water to the other side the water will fill up over 1/2 of the tank to compress that air to 12 PSI. Now you have a tank with less than 1/2 of its capacity to collect expanding water.
You need to remove the tank from the water pressure. Then charge the tank with air when there is no water in the other side. Once you put water pressure in the system then the 12 psi in the tank will hold back the 12 PSI cold water pressure in the boiler. Now you have a full tank of air to accept much more expanding water, as it heats up.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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