Replace B&G 100 or use Taco 007 monoflo
Five 1940's caste iron 4 tube radiators all about 30" high and of varying lengths with approx. 30,000 btu of total output.
Sa-1 ell shaped flo check valve. Once radiators heat up the temperature differential is about 20 degrees. Would prefer to use taco 007 due to cost and no maintenance. Any thoughts?
Comments
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The 007 isn't the best direct replacement for a B&G 100 in terms of flow rates, though it may be the best match for your system.
The 0010's curve is closest to the 100 and even exceeds flow just a bit. It may be overkill. I really can't tell from here, but these are the specs.Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
Consulting & Troubleshooting
Heating in NYC or NJ.
Classes
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Is it a B&G 100, or a 100 HV?0
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B&G 1000
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If the 100 has been covering the load, look for a similar curve.
With that boiler size you probably only need to move 8-9 gpm.
The B&G Vario is a nice option, you can dial it in to just about and system requirement.
Save electricity, and maybe get an energy rebate?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Things are a bit different with a monoflo type delivery system. The OP states with present setup his delta is 20 when everything is heated up. If you drop that flow rate to much could cause flow issues for purging, and a very wide delta.
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From what the OP says, it suggests approx. 8ft/hd and approx. 8 gpm. He may have been dancing near shutoff head for the 100. The 007 may work, but it's a little too close for my liking. I'd probably go with the 0010, and put a globe valve on the return, to dial the flow in. That's my unprofessional opinion.1
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You're right.......I calculated the flow based on boiler output, but as they say in Maine, ya still, "can't get there from here".0
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I just re-read the original post........You're changing a series 100 due to oil leaks????0
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I think the op is looking for a maintenance free circ Paul.
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When would you recommend he install that Gordy?0
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?0
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He wants to replace it because of oil leaks. Waiting until spring is probably wise, no?
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Sure. Or just wait until the spring coupler breaks because the excessive oiling has eaten the mounts, and shifted the alignment of the shaft. Usually when it's -10, and 1 am. Its 35 years old. That's pretty damn good on a three piece circ.0
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You must spend a fortune on tires that might go flat.
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Only when they are bald, cracked, and driving a long trip 0
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Here is a quote from Heather from 2008. Over oiling is a common problem with these circs.
"And please, for the love of all that is holy, do not over-oil. The how-to for oiling your pumps is found easily on the B&G public website. They really don't take all that much oil"
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Seems like some disagreement on which circulator. l wound up ordering A taco 0010 -3 speed pump. More than i wanted to spend but it seems like almost direct replacement. I'll post what speed i wind up setting it to after testing. Thanks for your responses.
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A couple of years ago I had our "Home Service" company, since I was paying for them, send out a plumber do a maintenance on our boiler/hydronic heating system which I have been doing for years and with proper maintenance it kept our house perfectly warm and comfortable for over 60 years.
The Plumber took out our B&G 100 when all that was needed was to either replace the linkage, relatively inexpensive, or "re-mesh" the linkage a 25-30 minute job, which I have done several times, and replaced it with a Taco 007-F5, 1/12HP vs 1/25HP, less flow as seen in the Taco Flow Charts. Ever since we've been freezing our butts off. Still waiting for the "Service Company" to fix it.
PLUS Taco in their installation guide says don't install their unit with the label upside down. Which is easy to remedy by turning the canister around. I called Taco and got two Senior Engineers on the line and told them what was done and one of them just went nutz! "I wish those F-ing guys would stop replacing 100s with 7-F5s!!!" The closest to the 100 is the Taco 0010 series. NOT the 007. I can tell you by experience. B&G 100s are not cheap.
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They should fix the 100 and put it back. Or put in an 0010 on their dime.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
When the motor mounts sagged, I would replace the motor and coupling and tell them to oil it less often.
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I called Taco and got two Senior Engineers on the line and told them what was done and one of them just went nutz! "I wish those F-ing guys would stop replacing 100s with 7-F5s!!!" The closest to the 100 is the Taco 0010 series. NOT the 007.
These two Senior Engineers are making statements without any facts. If they bothered to look at the pump curve for the 100, they would see that it crosses the curve for the 007 right at 10 GPM. If you need anything LESS than 10GPM, the 007 is going to flow more than the 100 at a given head. If you need MORE than 10 GPM (impossible on 3/4), the 100 is going to flow more than the 007.
It is impossible for the 007 to cause you to freeze if the 100 was perfectly fine unless you've got 1" or greater piping on a zone that has the capability of delivering over 80K BTUH (twice the heatloss of a typical 2000 sq. ft house @ 0°F).
I have serious doubts about the veracity of the story.
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If I read that right you said they replaced the 100 with the 007 several years ago? As much as I agree that they should not have done that, I am not sure that a couple of years later is the right time to change your mind. They got over on you but it's been a couple of years so it is hard to make it sound like it's something they did. The 010 is about double the price of the 007.
Do you still have the contract with them? Maybe that is the starting point just by saying that the 007 they installed seems to not be keeping up with the heat load seen during this colder winter and you'd like to go back with the 100 or the 010 "since that's what the taco engineer told you". It may go a little easier since you have consulted with the actual engineers from the Taco company and they advised the swap was not an equal swap. Just gotta let them know that it just has not performed well during this rougher colder winter compared to when they first installed it.
Good luck
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a few times when changing boilers replaced the b&g 100 with a 007 and the system would not work properly. cant remember want circulator we put in to fix it but it worked. ive also gone to a job i think it had a radiant zone on it and turned a 3 speed pump to high from low and then the system worked dont know why but it was fixed so i left it.
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This directly contradicts the pump curves. The 007 starts at 11 feet and falls to 8 feet at 10 GPM. The 100 starts at 8 feet and falls to just below 8 feet at 10 GPM. So it leaves the contractor with a real dilemma.
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Gee. It seems all of this could have been avoilded by simply replacing the baring assembly.
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I had this happen to me. Replaced a Taco 110 with an 007 and it didn't heat very well.
The 007 is a common pump sold everywhere even at the big box so many think it will replace anything. In most cases it will but not on every job.
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I had this happen to me. Replaced a Taco 110 with an 007 and it didn't heat very well.
Ed, can you provide additional details of the system that utilized this pump? Did the original 100 flow more than 10 GPM with a relatively narrow DT? Did it use 1"?
When it "didn't heat very well"………….did the DT climb with the 007 thereby affecting the end rads or baseboard?
The 100 has more capability than the 007………….but, only above 10 GPM.
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The flow in a system is a function of the system itself, not just the pump installed.
You need to have the pipe to allow it. For example safe, trouble-free design flow rates of a system will depend upon the pipe size;
3/4" pipe is 4-9 gpm
1" pipe is 8-14 gpm
1-1/4" pipe is 14-22 gpm
Take a look here for sizing a circulator
The b&g 100/ Taco 110 can handle up to 35 gpm with the highest head of around 8' of head. if its connected to 3/4" pipe does not mean you are going to get 33 gpm. it wont be in the range as above, it will be higher, but it will not be crazy amounts more.
The 007 goes out to 23 gpm and up to 10' of head, but same thing as above.
The biggest issues I see on a monoflo system when work is performed is the radiators get air in them and purging not only in the boiler room needs to be done but also at each and every radiator
Dave Holdorf
Technical Training Manager - East
Taco, Inc
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What is not clear is why there are issues with the change from the 100 to a 007 when MOST of the installs will be on a system that requires 10 GPM or LESS. The 007 outperforms the 100 in this region as it flows more at a given head.
Of course, above 10 GPM, the 100 begins to outperform the 007 and it seriously outperforms above 15 GPM. These would surely need to be 1.25" piping or the flow rate could never get to this region due to the excessive head in 1". Most of these fellows are not using the 007 on 1.25".
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if your B&G circulator worded for 35 years without experiencing any system issues, I would suggest a comparably sized pump, Taco 0010. However, in today’s new world of high efficiency circulators, the 0018, or 3452 would be good candidates for your monoflo system. The monoflo tees are great to create pressure drop in the main line, forcing water through radiators. Water is not too smart, and always takes path of least resistance. It would never want to go through the radiators hence the monoflo tees. The way they’re installed forces flow through radiator and creates a vacuum on return side of radiator. I do love this, however, it does add to resistance in main pipe that you need to take into consideration.
Those folks at Taco Tech support can help further. Reach out at 401-942-8000
Joe Mattiello
N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
Taco Comfort Solutions0 -
Mine was a Monoflow system and I think the Monoflow tees where just too much resistance for the 007. It started heating and was very sluggish, everything was bled it just couldn't move the water. You could follow the main around the house and the heat was very slow to move
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not an engineer or super knowledgeable on pumping curves. so you can replace a bg 100 with a 007 and theres no way the 007 cant do what the 100 can in any circumstance.
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Well, before you make a blanket statement about the two pumps, you really need to look at and understand the pump curves.
If you look at the two curves, you'll see that they cross right at 10 GPM. Below 10 GPM, the 007 has the advantage and will move more fluid. Above 10 GPM, the 100 has the advantage and it will move more fluid. Once you get to 15 GPM, the 007 becomes, effectively, useless and the 100 has a distinct advantage.
Now, you many never have been involved with a system that moves 10 GPM or more. That would necessitate 1.25 piping in most instances or both pumps likely wouldn't stand a chance………….depending on EL, of course.
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There has been no explanation from Taco regarding the fact that the 007 will flow more than the 100 BELOW 10GPM. Since most folks will not require 10GPM or more, there is no requirement for the 0010……………unless, of course, the pump curves are not accurate!
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I think monoflo mains tend to be 1.25" or larger.
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Apparently you didn't watch me struggle with 3/4……………..for months. Finally put an 011 on it and even that pump could NOT bring the DT below 25. The resistance of six monoflo Tees plus 100 feet of 3/4 was probably over 30 @ 4 GPM. I do not agree with the stated Cv from B&G…………or they were not B&G hardware.
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Oh, some are, usually with a couple loops or a split loop with a larger pipe to the far and and potential balancing problems, but most are larger. The 100 is designed to give constant flow over a wide range of conditions, the 007 is designed with a relatively linear relationship between head and flow. They are very different circulators. Most separate main or series loop systems aren't too picky about flow but it matters in a monoflo.
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so you just replace a b&g100 with a 007 and under all conditions it will work like i said .not an expert on this but it seems to be a simple answer for some who is
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I don't think I've ever seen a monoflo loop piped in 3/4". I always saw (and see less frequently) 1" on most. 1.25" on the larger systems. That's gotta be tough. Are the branches 1/2" or 3/8"?
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Now, of course we size it correctly. In the '90's, at 3:37 am Sunday, with a leaking bearing assembly (not a B&G 100. We carried parts for those.), a 007 always did just fine. There were other circulators that were taller flange to flange. We carried spacer blocks and longer bolts to pipe in a 007. I do not miss those days/nights at all. Using a hack saw to cut rusted bolts. 3 bolt flanges. No isolation valves anywhere. Close the feed and the expansion tank. Drop the pressure and pray you don't have to drain down the whole system and bleed EVERY radiator. Then pray the bleeders haven't been painted over 14 times.
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