Cast Iron Waste Line Crack
Plumber just discovered this, recommends 2-part epoxy after very light sanding….this handles 1st floor toilet, sink and kitchen sink. Bottom of it is either not fully cracked yet or was filled in decades ago. Darker photo is actually clearer. Line is 70 years old.
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Sounds good to me. I'd use JB Weld… There's no pressure on it, after all (or certainly shouldn't be!). I suspect the crack occurred when the copper above it was installed.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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@Jamie Hall Thanks, don't think that's the source of our occasional sewer smell, though it gives me a good place to check out when we notice it. Here's the rest of that piping….
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is it leaking or just a crack?
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No leaking as far as I can tell. Though the copper line was installed 30+? years ago way before we bought the house—it's hard to believe I never noticed that crack before since I'm at that work desk several times a day. Though ordinarily the sight of this might cause a homeowner to panic, since this seems commonplace to many Wallies, I'm ok with it as long as I can get it epoxied quite soon and then keep an eye on it. The idea of having to replace that whole main stack is something I don't want to think about.
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I had a similar crack in cast sewer line. A large pack of JB Weld followed by a healthy layer of Flex seal. Worked beautifully.
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i'd use epoxy putty. the copper waste was likely installed early 70's or earlier
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I looked over my notes from the prior owner—they did that work around 1989 fwiw. The cast iron stack, if it was done when the sewers were put in, then that was around 1955. Before the sewers the main waste line would have made a few turns on its way down to just above the floor into the septic tank port. I don't know if that original line from 1924 would have been the same cast iron 4" as now or a different one. Those days it might have been galvanized?
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1924 would be ci for the larger lines and lead for the smaller lines.
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That copper probably dates back to late 60 / early 70s. PVC has dominated everything since then.
Edit: Matt beat me to it!
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You can always take an angle grinder with a cutting disk and cut the CI out. It will cut it like butter. Put a new piece in with NO HUB or Fernco couplings.
That is if the patch doesn't work. not that hard to do. PVC and ABS started around here in the 70s so the copper is probably older than that.
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I suppose it's possible that even though one family may have done their renovation in the '80s, a prior family could have made the original switch to copper for the kitchen sink alone, but looking at this now my guess would be that the 80s family had an old school plumber who hated pvc. When they brought in sewers in '55 they tore up the basement floor to tee the slop sink waste line just below the main stack, and at the same time I think they connected the kitchen sink waste to the slop sink waste line. Since there was no 1st floor toilet or half-bath sink until the 80s earliest, there would have been no reason that I can see to install that cooper line you see in the other photos.
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I don't see any signs of leakage. I'd leave it alone unless it really bothers you.
It would only leak on a pressure test when you block the building drain as it leaves the house and fill with water. It would leak and so would all the lead and oakum joints.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
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Are you sure it had a concrete floor before 1955?
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There are several ways to repair this, and I believe even NYC still permits a plaster cast (like used to set a broken arm) on cast iron pipe. You can use epoxy putty or better is an epoxy or fiberglass cast, which is a gauze fabric soaked in epoxy or fiberglass. These are sold packaged for easy plumbing applications.
The problem is that most repairs are temporary. They last five or ten or fifteen years. The crack rusts internally and the rust expands the crack causing it to grow along the length of the pipe.The long term permanent solution is replacement.
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@mattmia2 Yes, original concrete floor for sure. Where they did the digging for the slop sink line the floor is very uneven, jagged but the rest of the floor is quite smooth except where you can see the imprint of the original huge coal boiler. @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes So an epoxy repair etc will not slow the crack's progress?
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Hi, It couldn't hurt to put a couple of stainless hose clamps on the pipe to prevent it expanding further.
Yours, Larry
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Drilling a round hole at the end of the crack can help keep it from spreading. or split it right open. it was likely made when they dug out the old lead joint.
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You don't pressure test caulked joints? We inflate a ball seal inserted in a low clean out and fill them up.Lead joints should not leak even with the stack full of water.
Remove the cracked ell and replace it with a piece of no hub and a couple of Ferncos per @EBEBRATT-Ed .
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I understand thinking it may not be the source of the smell.
But, you have an occasional sewer smell for an unknown reason, and there's a huge wide crack that could easily vent sewer gas under some conditions. I'd think there's a good chance that's the problem. Until you find out it's not.
I don't understand the reasoning for epoxy vs filling it with silicone RTV, but perhaps the hopes are the epoxy would help keep it from spreading? I do like the idea of a large hose clamp around it to help hold it together, though I'd be cautious tightening it. Tighten just enough to keep it from getting wider but not enough to close it. I wouldn't drill it.Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment1 -
@Chrisj If we used Silicone RTV, what hardness it should be it be—and would it be a one or two component type? A lot of other good suggestions but I'd be nervous about a plumber cutting the whole piece out and clamping a new piece in or even just adding a hose clamp—which otherwise makes a lot of sense—figuring that just the slightest pressure could crack the whole thing.
As for sewer smell when it occurs, I can usually smell it from the top of the stairs facing down into basement about ten feet from the trap, so I guess a number of exact locations are possible.
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I understand you concern but that’s a pretty easy wye to access and replace if the crack becomes unmanageable.
Ridgid chain type cutter will give you a clean joint to mate to PVC using double band rubber coupler.2 -
An angle grinder cuts better than a chain snapper and less risk damaging anything else.
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Or a carbide toothed Sawzall blade. Really quick and easy.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I've thought about a grinder.
I just can't get past the idea of blowing old poo and rust all over at high volume. Partially on fire.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment2 -
Carbide sawzall. Really.
There shouldn't be much, if any crud inside that pipe at that angle.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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I think the correct mix is zero, no?
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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If poo bothers you, then plumbing shouldn't be your business.
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yes, but like Chris I prefer minimize the spread of it around the work area. 😂
The Ridgid chain cutter are much faster and cleaner than a grinder. I would use the carbide tooth blade on recip in a pinch.
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The only problem we have with the chain cutters is that 90-year old pipe that is severely worn internally often just collapses rather than snapping at the chain line. But we do use them any chance we get,especially for the replacement. We still install lots of cast pipe and fittings.
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A tip: When using a chain cutter, try wrapping the chain around the hub and making your cut there.
The oakum in the hub will absorb the shock of the cutter lessening the chances of further damage.
The suggestions above for using JBWeld or an epoxy-type filler are great for a temporary fix. Heck, they can be a very long temporary fix.
I have used something called Pro-Epoxy. It's a two-part epoxy that comes in a stick kneaded together like Play-Doh. Then you push it into the crack. It works pretty well.
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The epoxy putty works great, until the rust grows and pushes out the crack. I've found I get five - ten years from an epoxy repair to a crack. If the damage is in a place where rust won't expand the metal, the putty repair lasts forever.
I never thought of snapping the hub… Thanks for the tip Intplm.
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What about Duct Tape? I heard it's good for everything. The only thing is, Duct Tape sticks to its self better than it sticks to anything else. Make sure the cast iron is clean before using Duct Tape or Epoxy. That goes for the crack, too.
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