Electric Hydronic Boilers

Electro Industries makes the best electric boilers in existence, IMO. They're simple creatures and can be had with pretty much any features you want/need instead of just being "one size fits all" like the rest. It's pretty tough to improve on electric resistance heating anymore- it's 100% efficient so a little staging and ODR is about the best we can get from a technology perspective. There are so many now that are using tankless water heater tech in lieu of an actual boiler (Stiebel Eltron, Thermolec, Thermo 2000, Viessmann, to name a few) that it makes Electro almost in a league of their own. I've got several hundred Electro boilers in service and have no reason to look elsewhere.

Thermo 2000 makes a nice selection.

With the electrification movement , boiler manufacturers are starting to bring new electric offerings. As well as air to water heat pumps for hydronics.

Thie Viessmann looks nice, 140F limit however.

I remember seeing an Argo (like the relays) wall hung electric hot water boiler for a baseboard zone in the late 1990s working for Uncle Richard. It was small compact and chunky. Neato...Didnt see one before or since Mad Dog

If someone had time-of-day electrical pricing, could they justify a fairly large storage tank to charge up during low rate times , using an electric boiler ?

For example, our $/kwh is;

6.5c 7pm-7am

13.4c 7am-11am

9.4c 11am-5pm

13.4c 5pm-7pm

Any heat lost thru the skin of this storage tank would still be inside the structure, so it's not "lost" .

I feel like you could use only the low-tier pricing in the shoulder seasons. A little bit deeper into the winter, and you would have to top-up during the mid-tier pricing. In the depths of winter, you would be SOL and pay thru the nose.

But how the heck would someone do the cost analysis on what size tank ?

We are all ears..pay attention now Uncle Richard....class is in session! Ha ha. Mad Dog.

I have yet to see an air (or, for that matter, ground source) to steam heat pump which will work with any decent efficiency (if it works at all) at -15 F outdoor temps. There are a lot of steam systems out there. I'm waiting…

If someone in the heat pump world wants to put their money where their mouth is, I'll make this offer — here, in writing. Design outdoor temp -15 F. Design heat loss 300,000 BTUh. Vapour steam system for heat transfer, operating at 4 ounces differential pressure. Total capital and operation (all up installation and commissioning, fuel, electricity, maintenance) with 20 year design life not more than 10% over existing oil fired steam system. You install it, and at the end of the 20 year design period we'll buy it from you.

Note: if system electric demand is more than 15 KW, installation etc. must include standby generator to power the system.

If you want to go geothermal, that all site work would be included in comparison with existing system.

For further reference: current oil cost is around $3.50 per galloon. Current electric rate is $0.30 per KWhour.

Time to ante up, folks.

I can't make a ground-source heat pump that will provide you steam, but I wouldn't want to. But I can heat any house cheaper than steam and almost as comfortably (forced air, sorry) with nearly free AC thrown in, and the maintenance-free life of a ground-source heat pump system is indeed 20+ years.

To buy it from me after 20 years you'd have to pay the time value of money though 😅

Way to go Jamie! Throwin down the Gauntlet. Problem is.."THEY" DO want to rip out my steam systems AND hot water et al. I've heard and read this. Don't know where you all from but NYC and All the Way to Montauk, The End, is TONS Of steam. All the older towns are 85-90% Steam Heat. Much of Manhattan and the 5 boros. All the old upstate towns. This is MY livelihood and how my children are put through college. I'm all for gradual modernization and "greening" of our existing systems and using as much solar PV, Wind, Solar Thermal, Mid Cons, Low Temp Radiant, low pressure steam & Vapor, but When I hear drastic , Utopian mandates and Gestapo-like tactics and force, I'm going to dig my heels 👠 😉 in! Mad Dog

P.S. Paul. Why aren't you taking the lead here? Why "waste" your hard earned $$ on an antiquated energy hog 🐗 like Steam?

I'm curious about the idea of trying to make a 'low-temp' steam system coupled with a ASHP or GSHP - you could either do it with a vacuum steam system and try to keep using water, or use a low boiling-point engineered fluid like 3M Novec 649 (boiling point of 120F!) or something. It seems like an interesting technical challenge at least.

I'm all for gradual modernization and "greening" of our existing systems and using as much solar PV, Wind, Solar Thermal, Mid Cons, Low Temp Radiant, low pressure steam & Vapor

Then we are in full agreement, Mad Dog! It is going to be slow and gradual, don't worry about a thing. No one is going to take away my steam boiler, nor anyone else's. These new laws are in just a few places and for new construction only.

I did install a ground source heat pump to take the place of the oil burning forced air system I had in my previous house in CT. Steam running on natural gas is way way better than scorched air running on oil so I haven't had the urge to rip it out like I did that foul oil burner.

How's this for a fantasy project? Use heat pump to store hot water and then distribute heat with subatmospheric pressure water vapor?

Realistically if one is not storing heat from resistance heater; then she is definitely better off with individual electric radiant heaters. Even without storage she is probably better off with individual electric radiant heaters.l

Always look for the money angle to these decisions. ConEd was full on board, maybe even spent some lobby $$ to the right lawmakers?? Who knows.

Isn't Wall Sreet in NY. I doubt they will go dark.

When I lived in Vermont, @yellowdog , some 50 years ago now, that would have been unthinkable. But I have wateched what the flatlanders and the city folks in Burlington and Middlebuy and Bennington and the ski areas have done to the state, and it just makes me cry… but I saw it coming, even back then.

Are New England states expediting or obstructing new electric transmission?

With due respect: it started with "new construction" here on the west coast (San Francisco Bay Area) only a few years ago and they've just recently, passed a regulation banning ALL gas-fired residential water heaters by 2027, furnaces by 2029 and commercial DHWs by 2031. No regulation further restricting steam yet (which is a staple of our business), but the millions of homeowners in our nine-county area who will be in massive amounts of debt electrifying their hot water, and then their heating systems, is just tyrannical. All of this in a region that struggles to produce enough electricity. But as someone else pointed out: most of these regulations have industries looking to profit and if the sooner they ram it through, the less opportunity our elected officials can be forced to stop it.

Let no one underestimate the speed with which appointed bureaucrats funded by special interests can run a ship aground.

My sole point to disagreeing with the sentiment that "it will be slow" is that it very well may not be and we cannot become complacent on the matter.

Erin Holohan Haskell said:

Allislandradiant said:

I am looking to install a Electric hydronic boiler for a Radiant system my customer is requesting. I have used the Slant-Finn model in the past and worked well. Just trying to get a feel on what anybody is using today with the newer technology, manufacture experience and reliability.

Let's get back on course with @Allislandradiant's question. Thanks!

Problem is that nobody sells technology in this field. Like I said, Realistically if one is not storing heat from resistance heater; then she is definitely better off with individual electric radiant heaters. Even with storage she is probably better off with individual electric radiant heaters.l Electric boiler driving hydronic heating is worst of both worlds without smart technology.

How about a technology to minimize electric demand? This would involve multiple storage heaters and a mixing valve so that customers has hottest water in early morning and then recovers when heating demand is lower and electric availability is higher. I've seen such schemes for large chilled water facilities.