Electric Hydronic Boilers

Allislandradiant

I am looking to install a Electric hydronic boiler for a Radiant system my customer is requesting. I have used the Slant-Finn model in the past and worked well. Just trying to get a feel on what anybody is using today with the newer technology, manufacture experience and reliability.

GroundUp

Electro Industries makes the best electric boilers in existence, IMO. They're simple creatures and can be had with pretty much any features you want/need instead of just being "one size fits all" like the rest. It's pretty tough to improve on electric resistance heating anymore- it's 100% efficient so a little staging and ODR is about the best we can get from a technology perspective. There are so many now that are using tankless water heater tech in lieu of an actual boiler (Stiebel Eltron, Thermolec, Thermo 2000, Viessmann, to name a few) that it makes Electro almost in a league of their own. I've got several hundred Electro boilers in service and have no reason to look elsewhere.

Allislandradiant

Thanks I will check them out.

hot_rod

Thermo 2000 makes a nice selection.

With the electrification movement , boiler manufacturers are starting to bring new electric offerings. As well as air to water heat pumps for hydronics.

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Screenshot 2023-03-28 at 11.13.58 AM.png

Thie Viessmann looks nice, 140F limit however.

GroundUp

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744793#Comment_1744793

That "Viessmann" was just recently purchased from NextGen and is a steaming pile of junk. Feel free to take a look at one in real life and you'll see that it's a poorly designed and constructed tankless water heater at best. I've had easily 20 of them with holes in the paper thin heat exchangers, and the whole internal vent/expansion tank thing is just about useless. Buyer beware.

Mad Dog_2

I remember seeing an Argo (like the relays) wall hung electric hot water boiler for a baseboard zone in the late 1990s working for Uncle Richard. It was small compact and chunky. Neato...Didnt see one before or since Mad Dog

Allislandradiant

You better start getting up with times my friend.

Dave Carpentier

If someone had time-of-day electrical pricing, could they justify a fairly large storage tank to charge up during low rate times , using an electric boiler ?

For example, our $/kwh is;

6.5c 7pm-7am

13.4c 7am-11am

9.4c 11am-5pm

13.4c 5pm-7pm

Any heat lost thru the skin of this storage tank would still be inside the structure, so it's not "lost" .

I feel like you could use only the low-tier pricing in the shoulder seasons. A little bit deeper into the winter, and you would have to top-up during the mid-tier pricing. In the depths of winter, you would be SOL and pay thru the nose.

But how the heck would someone do the cost analysis on what size tank ?

Derheatmeister

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744849#Comment_1744849

They Do… Sometimes using Phase changing materials that can have up to 40 000 cycles as a storage device… Or as you said a large Storage tank using proper stratification techniques.

BTW…With the current energy crisis in europe Manufactures will no longer be able to offer Fosil fuel burning Boilers in residental applications beginning of 2024 !

This years ISH in Frankfurt was very much focused on Air to water/solar/and many addons in order to be able to operate at max of 60 C (140 F).

Derheatmeister

https://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/products/wpl-a2w-premium-climate-heat-pumps

hot_rod

I don't think you want one of the older style cast or steel. They had large contractors to enable the elements. They were noisy and the contractors needed frequent attention.

The newer technology uses electronic relays, microprocessor controls. Many have outdoor reset function built in. The elements in the Thermo 2000, probably others, are common off the shelf flange elements for ease of replacement.

Mad Dog_2

We are all ears..pay attention now Uncle Richard....class is in session! Ha ha. Mad Dog.

Allislandradiant

thank you!!

Jamie Hall

I have yet to see an air (or, for that matter, ground source) to steam heat pump which will work with any decent efficiency (if it works at all) at -15 F outdoor temps. There are a lot of steam systems out there. I'm waiting…

If someone in the heat pump world wants to put their money where their mouth is, I'll make this offer — here, in writing. Design outdoor temp -15 F. Design heat loss 300,000 BTUh. Vapour steam system for heat transfer, operating at 4 ounces differential pressure. Total capital and operation (all up installation and commissioning, fuel, electricity, maintenance) with 20 year design life not more than 10% over existing oil fired steam system. You install it, and at the end of the 20 year design period we'll buy it from you.

Note: if system electric demand is more than 15 KW, installation etc. must include standby generator to power the system.

If you want to go geothermal, that all site work would be included in comparison with existing system.

For further reference: current oil cost is around $3.50 per galloon. Current electric rate is $0.30 per KWhour.

Time to ante up, folks.

Hot_water_fan

I have yet to see an air (or, for that matter, ground source) to steam heat pump which will work with any decent efficiency (if it works at all) at -15 F outdoor temps. There are a lot of steam systems out there. I'm waiting…

Show me the steam system that can provide cooling. There are a lot of air conditioners out there. I'm waiting…🙂

In all seriousness, heat pumps probably won't ever replace steam and that's okay. Everyone who wants steam and doesn't want AC should be able to keep steam if it was up to me. There's just not many of them, their impact is low.

ethicalpaul

I can't make a ground-source heat pump that will provide you steam, but I wouldn't want to. But I can heat any house cheaper than steam and almost as comfortably (forced air, sorry) with nearly free AC thrown in, and the maintenance-free life of a ground-source heat pump system is indeed 20+ years.

To buy it from me after 20 years you'd have to pay the time value of money though 😅

hot_rod

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1744943#Comment_1744943

good point onthe ground source. The A2whp have equipment outside, and there is the defrost issue.

While we have seen numerous ground source HP with 15- 20 life service, here recently. I think A2whp will be more in the 15 year life expectancy in those harsh conditions.

Mad Dog_2

Way to go Jamie! Throwin down the Gauntlet. Problem is.."THEY" DO want to rip out my steam systems AND hot water et al. I've heard and read this. Don't know where you all from but NYC and All the Way to Montauk, The End, is TONS Of steam. All the older towns are 85-90% Steam Heat. Much of Manhattan and the 5 boros. All the old upstate towns. This is MY livelihood and how my children are put through college. I'm all for gradual modernization and "greening" of our existing systems and using as much solar PV, Wind, Solar Thermal, Mid Cons, Low Temp Radiant, low pressure steam & Vapor, but When I hear drastic , Utopian mandates and Gestapo-like tactics and force, I'm going to dig my heels 👠 😉 in! Mad Dog

P.S. Paul. Why aren't you taking the lead here? Why "waste" your hard earned $$ on an antiquated energy hog 🐗 like Steam?

Hot_water_fan

@Mad Dog_2 Keep the steam! I am fine with all existing steam remaining so.

fentonc

I'm curious about the idea of trying to make a 'low-temp' steam system coupled with a ASHP or GSHP - you could either do it with a vacuum steam system and try to keep using water, or use a low boiling-point engineered fluid like 3M Novec 649 (boiling point of 120F!) or something. It seems like an interesting technical challenge at least.

Jamie Hall

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1745019#Comment_1745019

That would be fine — if the installed radiation were large enough to provide the required heat at the lower temperature. There is the minor (?) challenge of maintaining a sealed system…

ethicalpaul

I'm all for gradual modernization and "greening" of our existing systems and using as much solar PV, Wind, Solar Thermal, Mid Cons, Low Temp Radiant, low pressure steam & Vapor

Then we are in full agreement, Mad Dog! It is going to be slow and gradual, don't worry about a thing. No one is going to take away my steam boiler, nor anyone else's. These new laws are in just a few places and for new construction only.

I did install a ground source heat pump to take the place of the oil burning forced air system I had in my previous house in CT. Steam running on natural gas is way way better than scorched air running on oil so I haven't had the urge to rip it out like I did that foul oil burner.

hot_rod

Thermal district systems will be around, maybe even more built. Still plenty of hydronic and steam options.

Keep in mind any bill or mandate can be repeled.

Last census I read estimated 14 million "wet heat" system in the US.

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jumper

How's this for a fantasy project? Use heat pump to store hot water and then distribute heat with subatmospheric pressure water vapor?

Realistically if one is not storing heat from resistance heater; then she is definitely better off with individual electric radiant heaters. Even without storage she is probably better off with individual electric radiant heaters.l

Mad Dog_2

NYC Local Law 97 may be the harshest in the World. They are dead serious and people are freaking out trying to comply with ridiculous goals on an even more ridiculous time schedule. Serious environmentalists, I personally call friends, in the installation Field, engineering, architecture, energy managers, Law & Academia believe this is too much too fast, shoved down everyone's throats. These same people fought the good environmental fight for decades and even they are shocked at the unrealistic expectations of the immediate future. My prediction...The Politicians that are behind this are going to fall on their faces...and they will be forced to modify and scale back.Mad Dog

hot_rod

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1745052#Comment_1745052

Always look for the money angle to these decisions. ConEd was full on board, maybe even spent some lobby $$ to the right lawmakers?? Who knows.

Isn't Wall Sreet in NY. I doubt they will go dark.

yellowdog

hang onto your hats and watch what they are doing to us here in vermont. the state now has 2 years to design a system to penalize fuel dealers for delivering fuel and make them earn or buy credits to be able to deliver to the people that can still affford to buy fuel. they are projecting that it will add a tax to each gallon of fuel anywhere from $.70 to $4.00. i went to an efficiency vt conference last year and a speaker stood at the front of one of the rooms and said that they will tax fuel to the point that people will choose not to buy it and be forced to go to alternatives(electric)

Jamie Hall

When I lived in Vermont, @yellowdog , some 50 years ago now, that would have been unthinkable. But I have wateched what the flatlanders and the city folks in Burlington and Middlebuy and Bennington and the ski areas have done to the state, and it just makes me cry… but I saw it coming, even back then.

yellowdog

@Jamie Hall they are treating us like little california. whatever happens out there they try to implement here shortly after. nothing good will come from any of this.

jumper

Are New England states expediting or obstructing new electric transmission?

Jamie Hall

Well, they sure aren't helping. However, the debates are multi-pronged, and there's merit on both sides of most of them. The current poster child is a line which was to go from Canada across northern Maine — mostly wilderness — and transmit power from hydroelectric faciilities in Quebec (which are themselves controversial, since they were built on First Nations lands without any consideration of the "natives") to the Boston area — with no power going to the people of Maine. Who, rather naturally, were upset…

Scatch

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1745029#Comment_1745029

With due respect: it started with "new construction" here on the west coast (San Francisco Bay Area) only a few years ago and they've just recently, passed a regulation banning ALL gas-fired residential water heaters by 2027, furnaces by 2029 and commercial DHWs by 2031. No regulation further restricting steam yet (which is a staple of our business), but the millions of homeowners in our nine-county area who will be in massive amounts of debt electrifying their hot water, and then their heating systems, is just tyrannical. All of this in a region that struggles to produce enough electricity. But as someone else pointed out: most of these regulations have industries looking to profit and if the sooner they ram it through, the less opportunity our elected officials can be forced to stop it.

Let no one underestimate the speed with which appointed bureaucrats funded by special interests can run a ship aground.

My sole point to disagreeing with the sentiment that "it will be slow" is that it very well may not be and we cannot become complacent on the matter.

Mad Dog_2

I love your paragraph about Bureaucrats running the ship aground, Scatch! Mandatory lock downs, mandatory & very questionable vaccines..Utopian energy mandates...Nothing like forced compliance Staring down the barrel of a 12 Gauge! Proud, hardworking & law abiding Americans who always tow the line and follow the rules deserve better treatment and respect. Mad 🐕 Dog

Erin Holohan Haskell

Allislandradiant said:

I am looking to install a Electric hydronic boiler for a Radiant system my customer is requesting. I have used the Slant-Finn model in the past and worked well. Just trying to get a feel on what anybody is using today with the newer technology, manufacture experience and reliability.

Let's get back on course with @Allislandradiant's question. Thanks!

Erin Holohan Haskell

@Allislandradiant, U.S. Boiler showcased an electric boiler at AHR with an anticipated launch this summer.

jumper

Erin Holohan Haskell said:

Allislandradiant said:

I am looking to install a Electric hydronic boiler for a Radiant system my customer is requesting. I have used the Slant-Finn model in the past and worked well. Just trying to get a feel on what anybody is using today with the newer technology, manufacture experience and reliability.

Let's get back on course with @Allislandradiant's question. Thanks!

Problem is that nobody sells technology in this field. Like I said, Realistically if one is not storing heat from resistance heater; then she is definitely better off with individual electric radiant heaters. Even with storage she is probably better off with individual electric radiant heaters.l Electric boiler driving hydronic heating is worst of both worlds without smart technology.

How about a technology to minimize electric demand? This would involve multiple storage heaters and a mixing valve so that customers has hottest water in early morning and then recovers when heating demand is lower and electric availability is higher. I've seen such schemes for large chilled water facilities.