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GPM, is this going to be a problem?

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Comments

  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    I've developed a small, slow leak at the shut off on the supply side below the boiler (not the drain). Can I reheat that with water in the line and try to seal it up or should I wait and see if it seals itself? The pressure was down below 10 psi today so I added some more water, put it up to 14 psi but it has dropped to 10 psi and holding. Thanks.
  • Jolly Bodger
    Jolly Bodger Member Posts: 209
    You can't solder with water in the lines. And it won't seal it's self. best thing is to isolate what you can, drain it and re-solder it. Lots of flux will help. The heat will have to dry out the inside of the pipe before it will get hot enough to solder. It is going to take longer than the first time. And if it is on the valve you need to have it 1/2 Open/Closed to drain fully. Otherwise it will have a pocket of water and when it steams it will ruin the seat.
    JackW
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @Jolly Bodger that's what I was afraid of. Was hoping if I let it go the minerals in the water might plug it but that could take quite awhile, don't want to have to keep adding water to the system. Shouldn't take that long to fix, odd that that didn't show up during my air test. Thanks.
  • Jolly Bodger
    Jolly Bodger Member Posts: 209
    @JackW I think what happens sometimes is past flux fills the hole but as the system warms up and water runs through it, the flux gets dissolved and the hole opens up.
    rick in Alaska
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @Jolly Bodger That makes sense. I'm going to take that small section completely off then re-solder it. I can see now I should have put a shut off above the union, would save me from draining a lot of water out of the system. Will change it next summer.
  • hcpatel78
    hcpatel78 Member Posts: 151
    JackW said:

    Well I finally finished the re-build of my radiant heat system. I'm only running one zone at a time to begin with, everything seems to be working fine so far.
    I do have one question though, where do I set the thumb screw at on top of the air eliminator. The instructions don't say.
    Thanks.



    HI Jack,
    Off topic . I like your whole system design. I am planning for my 1000 sq ft floor (Underfloor installation with joist trek plates). Do you mind to share your design means parts list and how much floor is covered, what kind of installation etc?
    Thank you,
    Hiren Patel
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    edited December 2019
    @hcpatel78 Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, haven't cheked this post in a while. You are more then welcome to use my design. This is a two zone system, zone 1 is 30'x30', zone 2 is 15'x30'. It's 1/2" PEX incased in concrete. All copper is 3/4"
    Parts list:
    Hydro Smart 120 Condensing Gas Micro Boiler - Bought at Menards.
    Grundfos UPS 15-58 FC three speed circulators - Menards.
    Watts ETX-30 Expansion Tank - Menards.
    Webstone 3/4" SWT H-75003 Air Eliminator - Menards.
    The plastic strainer is from Menards also.
    Rifling 4 loop and 3 loop Manifolds - SupplyHouse.com. (They don't sell these anymore.) They do have something similar.
    TACO SR503-EXP-4 Switching Relay - SupplyHouse.com

    Any other questions please feel free to ask. I picked the brain of a lot of very knowledgeable guys on this site so if I can return any of that I will be happy to do so.
    Good luck,
    Jack
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    It's been about a month now and after fixing a two small leaks everything is working great. This is a far cry from my original system setup, you'd all get a good laugh if you saw it, so I want to take a couple of minutes and thank everyone for their help.
    @DZoro , @Ironman , @hot_rod , @GroundUp , @Jolly Bodger , @HomerJSmith , @STEVEusaPA , @HVACNUT , @EdTheHeaterMan , @Zman , @ratio (thanks for the book suggestion , @rick in Alaska , @Intplm. , @delta T , @heathead, @Simply Rad and @Canucker. If I missed anyone I apologize. You were all very helpful and I really appreciate it, so go out and buy yourselves a beer it's on me.

    Jack
    rationewinnj
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,713
    Glad everything worked out. Again, Looks Professional. Great Job
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
    JackW
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,367
    Nice job.
    Make sure you use the outdoor temp sensor and get the reset curve set properly.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @Ironman I don't know what that means.
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,889
    Do Takagi tankless water heaters have outdoor sensors now?
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,804
    Nice job! Looks like you have the skills to be an installer. Long hours, freezing cold, sweltering hot, sometimes sub par conditions, sometimes very dirty, mostly unappreciated. Who could ask for more?
    JackWGroundUp
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,615
    'Reset' refers to adjusting the water temperature based on the outdoor temperature. The idea is to add just enough heat to offset the heat loss of the building, which is directly related to the outdoor temperature (among other things).
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    edited December 2019
    @ratio How do I measure and adjust for that, I don't have an outdoor sensor on anything like that on my setup?
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,615
    It's a function of the boiler controls. I'm not familiar with the model you're using, so I can't tell you specifics. If it's actually a water heater, it won't have outdoor reset.
  • DZoro
    DZoro Member Posts: 1,048
    One last thing Jack, check your manual and it should have set up combustion numbers, and gas pressure settings.
    This maybe the hardest step for you, but it is important. Try to find a heating guy willing to perform a combustion analysis to properly tune the boiler to the manufacturers specifications, inside the book.
    You may have to mention when calling them that you want a "safety check" of your boiler with a combustion analyzer. They probably wont want to hear that you installed it, and that it is a brand new system so I wouldn't mention it in the phone conversation. You will have a better chance of getting someone out to perform a "safety check".
    Be there when they come and make sure when they leave that your combustion numbers match the OM numbers.
    That boiler isn't on the higher end of systems so it probably doesn't have ODR, oh ya and just tell them that you can't remember the name of the boiler. They wont like the "Menards brand" either.
    Kind of sneaky but that will help to find someone to perform the task you need done.
    Once again, nice job.
    D
    JackW
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    Thanks @DZoro I'll go over the instruction manual again and see if they say anything about this. I put a gas regulator on to match the settings the boiler needs but I don't remember seeing anything about combustion numbers.
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,889
    edited December 2019
    There are no combustion numbers listed for these, they're simply a rebadged Takagi water heater with a 200% upcharge. You will need a manometer to check inlet gas pressure. Acceptable specs are on page 22 of your manual
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,367
    What type of floor? Wood? Slab?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Icarus
    Icarus Member Posts: 143
    I bench built the manifolds for my three zone hot water heat system (Rinnai combi boiler) 1” copper supply and returns, reduced at the zone valves to 3/4” each. I built it with unions so I could install it after building it on the bench.

    As a last test, I plugged all the outlets and pressurized it with air to 150 psi to make sure it would leak, as taking apart in the small closet was problematic.

    Sure enough, put it in, gave it water, bled the air and no leaks. I was a happy camper. First time I fired up the boiler, two sweats began to seep and one union dripped! Off to the bench again, resolder the fittings, clean up the union, back to the boiler. (PITA!). Fired it up, everything good, for a couple of cycles, then another small seep on a sweat. (I was concerned about overheating the zone valves so I was being conservative with the heat). I was able to put a piece of tin behind the culprit, drain the portion of the system off I needed to, apply some heat, flux and solder, and five years on...no leaks!

    In talking to a a good plumber friend of mine, he related that he had seen fittings hold air pressure simply on the flux, no solder (not common however) and that water/heat/air are different animals. I guess the point is, real pros are just better at this than us amateurs.

    Icarus
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @GroundUp I have a manometer, the gas pressure is right in the middle of what is recommended. I far as your assertion this it's nothing more then a "rebadged Takagi" I don't believe that.
  • Buster
    Buster Member Posts: 36
    I don't have any plumbing in my building so right now I just have it going into a small bucket. I might look at plumbing it outside later but for now I'm going to leave it as is. I went ahead and ordered a neutralizer anyhow, want to make sure everything is done right. Thanks for your help.


    You may not want to drain it outside, it can freeze. There are ways around it freezing if that is your only option.

  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,889
    @JackW look up the manual for a Takagi (I believe) T-H3M-DV-P and compare notes. I have installed dozen of each, it is the exact same unit.
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @GroundUp it sure does, oh well to late to do anything about it now. Looks like the only thing you were wrong about is it's only a 100% markup, not 200%. Damn, hahaha.
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    My system has been up and running for a couple of months now. At first the pressure stayed constant at 14-15 lbs. but as of late the pressure has dropped to 9-10 lbs. When the heat comes on the pressure goes back up to 15psi then after the heat shuts off the pressure will slowly drop back down the 9-10lb. level. I've recharged the system four times with the same result each time. I've looked for a leak but haven't found any, besides if I had a leak I would think the pressure would eventually go to zero. The pressure tank is charged to 14lbs. Both rooms are heating well.
    Appreciate any thoughts on why this pressure drop is happening.
    Thanks,
    Jack
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    Measuring the pressure with the pumps off and system cold? The pressure will go up as you heat it up, of course.

    if you can let it set overnight and monitor pressure.

    Does it have an autofill valve, turned on? If so that will maintain pressure and sometimes mask a leak. Pressurize, valve off fill, observe.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @hot_rod pretty cold here right now so I hate to turn the pumps off, if it gets a little warmer I will. It doesn't have an autofill valve, I have to refill with a garden hose. Takes longer to set up then it does to refill the system with just 4lbs of pressure (water). That's what's so odd, where is that little bit of water that I am recharging the system with going? I bring it up to 15psi, come back out later that night and the pressure is down to 10psi again.
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,139
    Maybe that 4 PSI is air coming out of solution in the fresh water and going out the air eliminator?
    JackW
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    How much you adding a quart or gallons. air comes out of systems for some time after a first start.

    If it drops to zero you have a problem.

    What size expansion tank? Was the pre-charge adjusted on the tank when installed?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @hot_rod I'm not adding much at all. It literally take about 1 to 2 seconds to bring the psi up to 15 from 10.

    It doesn't drop to zero, it holds at 10 psi.

    The expansion tank is a Watts ETX-30, pre charged to 12 psi. It reads 14 psi now.
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @SuperTech that's what I thought at first but the system stayed at 14-15 psi for at least a month then dropped to 10psi. Every time I recharge it, it drops back down to 10 psi. I'm not putting hardly any extra water in the system at all to get it back up to 15psi that's why it's hard to believe it's got that much air in the water.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    Maybe just let it go to 10psi and are if it stays there? if it continues to drop, I'd suspect a pinhole, possible.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,889
    You can't read the air bladder pressure while there is water against the other side. The water side pressure needs to be at zero in order to accurately measure the air side pressure. Are you turning the garden hose on before connecting it to the heating system, so as to purge all air from the hose? If not, all you're doing is pumping air into the system that gets removed again over the next few hours as it runs through the air eliminator. If you had a pinhole in the bladder or a leak, it would eventually drop down to zero. I'm guessing you either have too much or no air in the expansion tank, so as the water expands it has nowhere to go- raising the pressure.
    SuperTech
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @hot_rod I agree, that's what I'm going to do, it's holding at 9-10psi. Thanks for your help.
    DZoro
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @GroundUp I'll have to wait till summer time and drain the system to read the pressure in the tank. I do run the water until all the air is out. Putting a tire gauge on the expansion tank this morning and it read 12psi. I agree I don't think I have a pin hole anywhere.
    DZoro
  • stonebutson
    stonebutson Member Posts: 24
    Nice looking job. All sweat joints look awesome. Looks so much better than propess
    DZoroJackW
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,889
    Keep in mind tire gauges can be wildly inaccurate. A recent job I was on, I charged a 60 gallon expansion tank for a large commercial system to 12psi using the 5-30psi gauge in my truck. System was doing exactly what yours is doing, which I attributed to a too-small expansion tank (it was too small, but that's what the engineer wanted), but I was curious anyway so I grabbed a different tire gauge from someone else on site and it read 35psi. I dropped it until one read 6 and one read 24 and it was acting better but still weird. So I grabbed a new 0-20 gauge on my way home and also grabbed the 5-30 from my shop, the next day mine from home read 17psi and the new one read 19. Dropped it further until I was seeing 11 and 13. The system acted almost perfectly, albeit a 4 psi rise from cold to hot- as the small tank will do.

    Try more than one gauge, if/when you get around to draining the system. Ideally a dial type instead of the stick type
    DZoroJackW
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    The pressure dropped close to 5lbs a couple of weeks ago so I hooked up the garden hose to bring the pressure back up and I also hooked up a hose to one of the boiler drains then carefully opened both valves to keep the pressure constant. I got a big bubble out of the drain hose and ever since then the pressure has stayed steady at 14psi. Must not have gotten all the air out when I did the initial fill and purge.
  • JackW
    JackW Member Posts: 236
    @stonebutson thank you. It was a fun and educational project. Had lots of great help from everyone.