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GPM, is this going to be a problem?
Comments
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I've developed a small, slow leak at the shut off on the supply side below the boiler (not the drain). Can I reheat that with water in the line and try to seal it up or should I wait and see if it seals itself? The pressure was down below 10 psi today so I added some more water, put it up to 14 psi but it has dropped to 10 psi and holding. Thanks.0
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You can't solder with water in the lines. And it won't seal it's self. best thing is to isolate what you can, drain it and re-solder it. Lots of flux will help. The heat will have to dry out the inside of the pipe before it will get hot enough to solder. It is going to take longer than the first time. And if it is on the valve you need to have it 1/2 Open/Closed to drain fully. Otherwise it will have a pocket of water and when it steams it will ruin the seat.
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@Jolly Bodger that's what I was afraid of. Was hoping if I let it go the minerals in the water might plug it but that could take quite awhile, don't want to have to keep adding water to the system. Shouldn't take that long to fix, odd that that didn't show up during my air test. Thanks.0
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@JackW I think what happens sometimes is past flux fills the hole but as the system warms up and water runs through it, the flux gets dissolved and the hole opens up.
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@Jolly Bodger That makes sense. I'm going to take that small section completely off then re-solder it. I can see now I should have put a shut off above the union, would save me from draining a lot of water out of the system. Will change it next summer.0
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HI Jack,JackW said:Well I finally finished the re-build of my radiant heat system. I'm only running one zone at a time to begin with, everything seems to be working fine so far.
I do have one question though, where do I set the thumb screw at on top of the air eliminator. The instructions don't say.
Thanks.
Off topic . I like your whole system design. I am planning for my 1000 sq ft floor (Underfloor installation with joist trek plates). Do you mind to share your design means parts list and how much floor is covered, what kind of installation etc?Thank you,
Hiren Patel0 -
@hcpatel78 Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, haven't cheked this post in a while. You are more then welcome to use my design. This is a two zone system, zone 1 is 30'x30', zone 2 is 15'x30'. It's 1/2" PEX incased in concrete. All copper is 3/4"
Parts list:
Hydro Smart 120 Condensing Gas Micro Boiler - Bought at Menards.
Grundfos UPS 15-58 FC three speed circulators - Menards.
Watts ETX-30 Expansion Tank - Menards.
Webstone 3/4" SWT H-75003 Air Eliminator - Menards.
The plastic strainer is from Menards also.
Rifling 4 loop and 3 loop Manifolds - SupplyHouse.com. (They don't sell these anymore.) They do have something similar.
TACO SR503-EXP-4 Switching Relay - SupplyHouse.com
Any other questions please feel free to ask. I picked the brain of a lot of very knowledgeable guys on this site so if I can return any of that I will be happy to do so.
Good luck,
Jack0 -
It's been about a month now and after fixing a two small leaks everything is working great. This is a far cry from my original system setup, you'd all get a good laugh if you saw it, so I want to take a couple of minutes and thank everyone for their help.
@DZoro , @Ironman , @hot_rod , @GroundUp , @Jolly Bodger , @HomerJSmith , @STEVEusaPA , @HVACNUT , @EdTheHeaterMan , @Zman , @ratio (thanks for the book suggestion , @rick in Alaska , @Intplm. , @delta T , @heathead, @Simply Rad and @Canucker. If I missed anyone I apologize. You were all very helpful and I really appreciate it, so go out and buy yourselves a beer it's on me.
Jack
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Glad everything worked out. Again, Looks Professional. Great Job
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Nice job.
Make sure you use the outdoor temp sensor and get the reset curve set properly.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Do Takagi tankless water heaters have outdoor sensors now?0
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Nice job! Looks like you have the skills to be an installer. Long hours, freezing cold, sweltering hot, sometimes sub par conditions, sometimes very dirty, mostly unappreciated. Who could ask for more?
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'Reset' refers to adjusting the water temperature based on the outdoor temperature. The idea is to add just enough heat to offset the heat loss of the building, which is directly related to the outdoor temperature (among other things).0
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It's a function of the boiler controls. I'm not familiar with the model you're using, so I can't tell you specifics. If it's actually a water heater, it won't have outdoor reset.0
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One last thing Jack, check your manual and it should have set up combustion numbers, and gas pressure settings.
This maybe the hardest step for you, but it is important. Try to find a heating guy willing to perform a combustion analysis to properly tune the boiler to the manufacturers specifications, inside the book.
You may have to mention when calling them that you want a "safety check" of your boiler with a combustion analyzer. They probably wont want to hear that you installed it, and that it is a brand new system so I wouldn't mention it in the phone conversation. You will have a better chance of getting someone out to perform a "safety check".
Be there when they come and make sure when they leave that your combustion numbers match the OM numbers.
That boiler isn't on the higher end of systems so it probably doesn't have ODR, oh ya and just tell them that you can't remember the name of the boiler. They wont like the "Menards brand" either.
Kind of sneaky but that will help to find someone to perform the task you need done.
Once again, nice job.
D1 -
There are no combustion numbers listed for these, they're simply a rebadged Takagi water heater with a 200% upcharge. You will need a manometer to check inlet gas pressure. Acceptable specs are on page 22 of your manual0
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What type of floor? Wood? Slab?Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
I bench built the manifolds for my three zone hot water heat system (Rinnai combi boiler) 1” copper supply and returns, reduced at the zone valves to 3/4” each. I built it with unions so I could install it after building it on the bench.
As a last test, I plugged all the outlets and pressurized it with air to 150 psi to make sure it would leak, as taking apart in the small closet was problematic.
Sure enough, put it in, gave it water, bled the air and no leaks. I was a happy camper. First time I fired up the boiler, two sweats began to seep and one union dripped! Off to the bench again, resolder the fittings, clean up the union, back to the boiler. (PITA!). Fired it up, everything good, for a couple of cycles, then another small seep on a sweat. (I was concerned about overheating the zone valves so I was being conservative with the heat). I was able to put a piece of tin behind the culprit, drain the portion of the system off I needed to, apply some heat, flux and solder, and five years on...no leaks!
In talking to a a good plumber friend of mine, he related that he had seen fittings hold air pressure simply on the flux, no solder (not common however) and that water/heat/air are different animals. I guess the point is, real pros are just better at this than us amateurs.
Icarus0 -
I don't have any plumbing in my building so right now I just have it going into a small bucket. I might look at plumbing it outside later but for now I'm going to leave it as is. I went ahead and ordered a neutralizer anyhow, want to make sure everything is done right. Thanks for your help.
You may not want to drain it outside, it can freeze. There are ways around it freezing if that is your only option.
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My system has been up and running for a couple of months now. At first the pressure stayed constant at 14-15 lbs. but as of late the pressure has dropped to 9-10 lbs. When the heat comes on the pressure goes back up to 15psi then after the heat shuts off the pressure will slowly drop back down the 9-10lb. level. I've recharged the system four times with the same result each time. I've looked for a leak but haven't found any, besides if I had a leak I would think the pressure would eventually go to zero. The pressure tank is charged to 14lbs. Both rooms are heating well.
Appreciate any thoughts on why this pressure drop is happening.
Thanks,
Jack0 -
Measuring the pressure with the pumps off and system cold? The pressure will go up as you heat it up, of course.
if you can let it set overnight and monitor pressure.
Does it have an autofill valve, turned on? If so that will maintain pressure and sometimes mask a leak. Pressurize, valve off fill, observe.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
@hot_rod pretty cold here right now so I hate to turn the pumps off, if it gets a little warmer I will. It doesn't have an autofill valve, I have to refill with a garden hose. Takes longer to set up then it does to refill the system with just 4lbs of pressure (water). That's what's so odd, where is that little bit of water that I am recharging the system with going? I bring it up to 15psi, come back out later that night and the pressure is down to 10psi again.0
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Maybe that 4 PSI is air coming out of solution in the fresh water and going out the air eliminator?1
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How much you adding a quart or gallons. air comes out of systems for some time after a first start.
If it drops to zero you have a problem.
What size expansion tank? Was the pre-charge adjusted on the tank when installed?Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
@SuperTech that's what I thought at first but the system stayed at 14-15 psi for at least a month then dropped to 10psi. Every time I recharge it, it drops back down to 10 psi. I'm not putting hardly any extra water in the system at all to get it back up to 15psi that's why it's hard to believe it's got that much air in the water.0
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Maybe just let it go to 10psi and are if it stays there? if it continues to drop, I'd suspect a pinhole, possible.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
You can't read the air bladder pressure while there is water against the other side. The water side pressure needs to be at zero in order to accurately measure the air side pressure. Are you turning the garden hose on before connecting it to the heating system, so as to purge all air from the hose? If not, all you're doing is pumping air into the system that gets removed again over the next few hours as it runs through the air eliminator. If you had a pinhole in the bladder or a leak, it would eventually drop down to zero. I'm guessing you either have too much or no air in the expansion tank, so as the water expands it has nowhere to go- raising the pressure.
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Nice looking job. All sweat joints look awesome. Looks so much better than propess
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Keep in mind tire gauges can be wildly inaccurate. A recent job I was on, I charged a 60 gallon expansion tank for a large commercial system to 12psi using the 5-30psi gauge in my truck. System was doing exactly what yours is doing, which I attributed to a too-small expansion tank (it was too small, but that's what the engineer wanted), but I was curious anyway so I grabbed a different tire gauge from someone else on site and it read 35psi. I dropped it until one read 6 and one read 24 and it was acting better but still weird. So I grabbed a new 0-20 gauge on my way home and also grabbed the 5-30 from my shop, the next day mine from home read 17psi and the new one read 19. Dropped it further until I was seeing 11 and 13. The system acted almost perfectly, albeit a 4 psi rise from cold to hot- as the small tank will do.
Try more than one gauge, if/when you get around to draining the system. Ideally a dial type instead of the stick type2 -
The pressure dropped close to 5lbs a couple of weeks ago so I hooked up the garden hose to bring the pressure back up and I also hooked up a hose to one of the boiler drains then carefully opened both valves to keep the pressure constant. I got a big bubble out of the drain hose and ever since then the pressure has stayed steady at 14psi. Must not have gotten all the air out when I did the initial fill and purge.0
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@stonebutson thank you. It was a fun and educational project. Had lots of great help from everyone.
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