were steam heated churches cold?

rhodebump · December 2017

This is for a church, built in 1903 with a 2-pipe system.

I am trying to figure out what size boiler we need. Former boiler was a Weil Mcclain # lgb7-2. This had a max output of 631800 BTU.

I have calculated the heat loss for the church to be:
Total Heat Loss for 60o F Temp. Diff. = 198,695.80
Total Heat Loss for 70o F Temp. Diff. = 234,461.04

First steam boiler company calculates the radiation with the current radiators as 188K BTU
2nd HVAC company wants to validate the 188K BTU number. They see the former boiler had 4 inch pipes in risers, and do not want to put in something that is too small.

The majority of the current radiators are old Crane baseboard, and I reviewed the document that somebody provided on these. https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/crane-radiant-baseboard-panels/ There have a total of 133 feet length of baseboard. According to that guide, this is 133 feet * 3.25 SF * 240BTU, so I am only getting 110K BTU. In any case, seems like little radiation for the heat loss.

I would appreciate any thought on how to understand why there appears to be so little radiation, and what would be the right boiler to use.

With appreciation,
Phillip

Fred · December 2017

What did the Church Board and Parishioners say about the comfort level, during services? It sounds like someone, over the years took out a lot of cast iron radiation and replaced it with maybe too little baseboard, especially if they turn the heat way down five or six days a week and then want it comfortable for Sunday service.

rhodebump · December 2017

That's a good question. The church was closed several years ago, 10 or 20 years, but I will see if I can track down somebody to ask.

Jamie Hall · December 2017

@Fred may be right -- the building may have had more radiation in the past.

On the other hand, it may not. Country churches, at least, were not heated to anything like our current concepts of what is warm enough, for the simple reason that people came to church in their winter clothes and didn't take them off.

Your 110 K figure may be a bit low; I'd double check that. I'd also look around and see if there are obvious signs of missing radiation in the building. You might ask how the HVAC company came up with the 188 K figure. That figure would give you a delta T of 56, which is probably quite enough. The 110 figure would give only 33, which is probably chillier than the old building was meant to run at.

In any event, you size the boiler -- as always with steam -- based on the installed radiation, not building heat loss. If the folks running the church want it up to modern standards, you may have to install some additional radiation.

The size of the pipes isn't a problem -- but do make sure that everything is insulated!

For reference, by the way, the church I attended years ago when I lived in very rural Vermont was heated by one large wood stove. That was fired up early Sunday morning by the sexton. If it got above freezing by time for worship on a January Sunday morning, that was a real accomplishment.

EBEBRATT-Ed · December 2017

I agree with @Fred .

there was no baseboard in 1903. Sounds like somebody butchard this and took out the old radiators.

Are you going to stay with steam?

Assuming steam I would double check the heat loss. Add radiation if need be

The Dead Men, they didn't install 4" risers for no reason

There is a mystery to be solved. A lot of the old churches used a blower system with indirect radiation to heat outdoor air . There would have been a huge blower probably in the basement with indirect radiation hanging from the basement ceiling. Search around you will find evidence of something. Then trust the heat loss calculation, add radiation and go for it

If you stay with steam and are using set back temperatures you may wan't to consider a larger pic-up load, like 1.4

rhodebump · December 2017

Thank you everyone for your insights. I posted a message to a facebook group that has several former parishioners on it. I will share what they tell me.

I am going to try to stick with steam.

JUGHNE · December 2017

If you have access to the basement ceiling, you may be able to see evidence of abandoned riser holes. Or modifications to the steam runouts. As ED said 1903 would have been CI rads.

The church I service has one pipe steam. 65 is plenty warm for services. As a test one evening I did get the building up to 70 with -10 ODT. Pretty good for a 1915 all masonry building.

DanHolohan · December 2017

This will help you understand how they did this back in the day:

https://heatinghelp.com/blog/heating-old-churches/

nicholas bonham-carter · December 2017

Adding more fire and brimstone to the sermons may help as well!.—NBC

MilanD · December 2017

DanHolohan said:
This will help you understand how they did this back in the day:

https://heatinghelp.com/blog/heating-old-churches/

Love it. Esp. that last sentence. Mr. Holohan, Mark Twain of steam heating!

DanHolohan · December 2017

Too visual? ;-)

MilanD · December 2017

I'd say - quite accurate! That was a psa for sure: the more you know! Ta-da da-daaaa!

KC_Jones · December 2017

Should one not also consider heat gain from all those parishioners? The room may seem cool at first, but after you pack all those people in not so much.

If the room is comfortable when people arrive it will most likely feel overheated by the end of the service. BTU ouput of a human body is something like 200 per person. Put 100 people in that church and that is 20k BTU.

To the OP, how many people does the church hold?

DanHolohan · December 2017

I suppose it depends on who's doing the homily. :-)

Jamie Hall · December 2017

"There is a mystery to be solved. A lot of the old churches used a blower system with indirect radiation to heat outdoor air . There would have been a huge blower probably in the basement with indirect radiation hanging from the basement ceiling. Search around you will find evidence of something. Then trust the heat loss calculation, add radiation and go for it"

One of the most magnificent cathedrals in England -- Durham -- is heated this way. I remember going in there one miserable rainy cold day and being delighted by the gentle warm air from heating grilles in discreet locations!

rhodebump · December 2017

The main church floor is 35' x 60'
There is a choir loft that held up to 90 people also (but it was crowded up there).
There heard the church was packed in the day, but never got a count.

I will only have 100 people in there since I don't have fire sprinklers.

I also heard from 8 people since I posted that the church was always warm and comfortable.

That was an interesting read, perfectly fit the situation where I am seeing small radiation for the building.

jumper · December 2017

KC_Jones said:
Should one not also consider heat gain from all those parishioners? The room may seem cool at first, but after you pack all those people in not so much.

If the room is comfortable when people arrive it will most likely feel overheated by the end of the service. BTU ouput of a human body is something like 200 per person. Put 100 people in that church and that is 20k BTU.

To the OP, how many people does the church hold?

Absolutely yes. Which is why heating & cooling assembly halls is specific. Use radiant floors so that place doesn't feel cold at beginning and then ventilate like hell after it fills up.

were steam heated churches cold?

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