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Repeated water heater failure

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  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,304
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    Hi, pressure reducers often don't last over five years, so I'd check to see if yours really is working. Also, it can act as a backflow preventer, so thermal expansion becomes a bigger concern. They should have a small ball check valve to let high pressure back into the system, but those get stuck. Imagine starting with pressure that's too high, like 120 and then heating it! The relief valve and expansion tank should take care of this, but they do fail. I've seen those crooked tank nipples before and it's always been pressure.

    Yours, Larry
    russhmeyer
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,627
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    My in-laws lived in a place with a PRV. It didn't seat properly & the bldg pressure would slowly climb to street pressures, ≈120# IIRC, groaning the whole time. Do your tenants hear any whistling or groaning noise?
  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
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    Larry - Thanks for the thoughts. That makes a lot of sense. I'm beginning to suspect that its some combination of street pressure, plus maybe backflow prevention plus running the water heater more frequently because of the air handler (and possibly increased sedimentation) all adding up to a relatively rapid failure pattern with repeated WH. These are all good thoughts to have the plumber check when they come this week. Appreciate the thoughts.
  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
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    Ratio - Tenants haven't mentioned any noises, but the tank is in the basement and they have kids, so I don't know if they'd even hear it if it made noise.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,157
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    A few devices would need to fail to over pressurize a tank. Water heater tanks are listed to 150PSI, tested to 300psi!

    The pressure reducing valve would need to fail to allow excessive pressure into the tank. Generally PRVs are factory pre-set to 45 psi.

    Then the pressure relief valve on the tank would need to fail, be rendered useless, or not installed, as it is set to relieve at 150 psi, the listed operating pressure of the tank.

    A pic of the relief valve would be helpful. But some more onsite sleuthing is the best way forward.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    rick in Alaska
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,841
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    After so many frequent failures, I say scrap that whole set up.
    Install a small mod con gas boiler with an indirect water heater and a space heat zone for the hydro coil.
    russhmeyerkcopp
  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
    edited September 2017
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    Ratio - Tenants haven't mentioned any noises, but the tank is in the basement and they have kids, so I don't know if they'd even hear it if it made noise.
  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
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    Here's a shot of the pressure relief valve. Looks like it hasn't been triggered.

  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
    edited September 2017
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    Here's a couple shots of the tank in its entirety.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,157
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    That looks more like a mixing valve? I don't see a pressure relief valve in any of the pics? Here is an example of a common type. It has a lever to test and should have a discharge tube to the floor.

    Most all tank type water heaters are supplied with appropriate temperature and pressure relief valves, the installation manual would show the part # and installation.

    At least they will have an American flag when they ride that tank to the moon.

    Interesting seismic restraint :)

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    It sure appears as though someone took off the relief valve and stuck on that mixer. That would be very dangerous.

    It is possible that you have check valves installed in a manot that is allowing the tank to go over pressure with few other side effects. I am surprised if you are not getting water hammer or issues with appliance water valves.

    If you can't find one of these somewhere in the system, piped to open air, you have a serious problem.

    Check out this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bU-I2ZiML0
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    MilanDCanucker
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,457
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    Unless I am also missing something, you do not have a relief valve on the tank. I would get your plumber out there right away and find out if there is one on the top of the tank or if that its indeed a mixing valve. You need this fixed immediately! That is incredibly unsafe.
    Rick
    delta TJUGHNECanuckerkcopp
  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
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    I'm disadvantaged by being 3000 miles away with a tenant who's not terribly skilled when it comes to identifying the plumbing details. I'm fairly sure there is a pressure relief valve that vents to the outside of the house (as we don't have a drain in the basement of this 100 yr. old house). But maybe it's in the wrong location or needs to be checked. These are all things I'm going to ask the plumber I'm having come this week to check things out. Appreciate all the various thoughts.
  • MilanD
    MilanD Member Posts: 1,160
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    It may be time for a trip back... Or call a property management company to act on your behalf. No easy way about it.

    I can't believe someone would install this without a prv, but then, there are hacks out there. Wow.

    At least have your tenant send more pictures from all sides and getting all surfaces in the various frames. There has to be a prv., and if not - this is dangerous.
  • delta T
    delta T Member Posts: 884
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    That mixing valve is located where the relief valve is supposed to be (see sticker above it on the tank). If a proper T&P relief valve is not installed somewhere else where it will always have direct access to the tank water no mater what valves are shut off, or check valves closed, then it is wrong and incredibly unsafe. If I was called to that water heater and could not find a relief valve on it I would decommission it until a relief valve was installed. That is literally a bomb waiting to go off. Make sure your plumber verifies that the expansion tank is correctly sized as well as correctly pressurized.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,841
    edited September 2017
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    I just checked the Watts site.
    I think the model reads LF210-5 which is an automatic gas shut off vavle. 210* Limit
    I was wondering why it was gal with a gas cock and flex pipe. I thought it was earthquake protection for the water lines.
    Doesn't say anything about pressure. Just temperature.
    The tag above the valve clearly says T&P location.
    There is no pressure relief the I can see.
    More pics would be great.
    I'm so confused.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited September 2017
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    To the OP I think it to be wise on your part to hire someone that has cognitive abilities for that setup. Clearly you have had different plumbers all of which must have ignored the safety of the temperature pressure relief valve. This is surely why your water heaters are not lasting.

    My previous replies have entirely assumed ( wrongly so) a most elementary safety device for a hot water heater.
    russhmeyer
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,062
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    The Mythbusters video is not just over rated hype. This does happen. I know of a case where the exact thing happen only the tank made it out to the driveway of an old farmhouse that had better construction than their mock up. I believe that one was electric. If gas the gas line would have been ripped off like the connections on a Saturn 5 rocket. Adding to the danger of open gas leak.

    If this or anything close to it were to happen as shown, you as a landlord are responsible for all liability involved. You , most likely unknowably, hired an incompetent plumber who cobbled this in there. He may not have insurance and most likely never took out a permit for the installation (3 times).
    He owes you for 3 tanks now.
    You are lucky that the tanks simply ruptured from pressure. The controls must be working and kept the water at a reasonable temperatures.

    The expansion tank must be connected in the wrong place.
    The pressure build up would have been absorbed into the tank if it could "feel " what the tank was experiencing.
    If there wasn't enough "cushion" in the air tank then the T&P valve would open to drop the pressure........but it must not be there......it comes with each tank as stated and this is where it must go. Most of the time they are already screwed tightly into the port that was designed for it. It could be on a shelf in his truck or garage.

    IIFM and I was 3000 miles away, I would almost consider an attorney who would have access to a forensic mechanical engineer/attorney. Just a letter from a lawyer usually gets attention and may keep this dude off the streets.

    ...I know, never get an attorney involved.....CA must be loaded with them though.
    russhmeyer
  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
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    All - Thanks for the input. Clearly, the first question I need the new plumber to answer is where's the pressure relief valve? (I'm bringing someone else in, not the guys who put in the last three tanks.)
    If it turns out there isn't one, then the company that I used to put in the last three WH will have some answering to do. (I'm surprised because they're a big company and get great reviews and are recommended by many.) I don't think legal action is out of the question if it turns out there's a significant safety error.
    Beyond that, we need to make sure that the expansion tank is in the right place.
    Then we need to get to the bottom of whether the air handler is putting excess pressure on the water heater and whether we need to, as some have suggested, just put in a different system - more like a boiler set up than a water heater set up.
    If there isn't a pressure relief valve, then I am incredibly lucky that the worst that happened is the tanks only ruptured.
    A pressure gauge should be arriving from Amazon today. I'll have the tenant put it on the tank and we can not only measure the pressure, but track the maximum pressure due to the extra needle on the gauge (not sure what it's called.)
    Thanks to you all for helping me sort out at least the important questions to ask the plumber when they get there later this week. Appreciate all the expertise.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,157
    edited September 2017
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    I'd be curious to see how it is vented also. Up on a stand in limited ceiling height makes me suspicious.

    You want a knowledgable plumber to inspect for:

    System piping, expansion tank, and assure correct relief valve in the tank. The valve needs to be into the tank, not remotely mounted somewhere.
    Check venting and combustion air
    Seismic restraint up to code?
    Be nice to move any combustibles away from the tank

    Looks like a boiler nearby, or is that a furnace? wonder why you even have an Apollo system?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    russhmeyer
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,062
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    Is this in a garage, or do these stairs lead up to the garage?
    Trying to understand why the tank is elevated that high.

  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
    edited September 2017
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    Hot Rod & Jughne - Answers to your questions: It's vented out the top to the outdoors via the black pipe you see in the pictures. It's in a basement area, adjacent to a garage. Stairs lead up to the first floor (kitchen). House is built over the basement/garage space.
    It has to be off the ground because of Oakland city regulation. Because there isn't a closing door between the basement and the garage, the water heater has to be a certain height off the ground.
    It might be that I'm better off putting in a door that closes, allowing the WH to sit on the basement floor.
    Behind the water heater is the furnace for the rest of the house. We put the Apollo system in during a remodel to heat three new rooms. I'm not sure I'd make the same decision now, but it is what it is.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Please let us know what your new professional discovers. It's hard to trouble shoot such incidents from thousands of miles away as you are aware :) . So pics, and information is all that there is for us to use in trouble shooting such issues. Good luck!
    russhmeyer
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,322
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    To simplify just a little bit here.

    One, you must have a pressure and temperature relief valve on that rig, and it must be piped to discharge freely with no valves. It should discharge where the discharge is readily visible.

    Two, if there are any check valves on your plumbing, or pressure reducing valves (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are) you must have an expansion tank with adequate capacity on the system, again connected so that it has free access to the hot water tank. An isolation valve may be used (in most jurisdictions) but must be left open at all times unless the water heater is locked off.

    Three, the air handler coil will not put any pressure on the system; a circulating pump associated with it will only compensate for the pressure loss through the coil.

    This stuff isn't rocket science...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
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    I am sure you have a great case for Larry the lawyer and Judy the judge to have that entire system ripped out as it's been compromised...Do that soon b4 the tennents get hurt, because ultimately you are the responsible one....You will end up paying them the rent....
    russhmeyer
  • russhmeyer
    russhmeyer Member Posts: 19
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    ja - Thanks. I have a different plumber coming this week to look at things and I now have plenty of smart questions to ask. We'll get it solved this week. Depending on what they tell me, we'll see what I do about the previous plumber. The whole thing is appalling to me and makes me worried about trusting this new plumbing company, but I'll have to trust somebody. The comments of this thread have been very helpful in my understanding the situation and being more proactive about what I think should happen, rather than just relying on them to tell me. So I appreciate all the collective knowledge and assistance.
  • TheKeymaster
    TheKeymaster Member Posts: 36
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    I"m not expert and lurk on the boards as I probably buying a house with Hydronics and want to learn more. 20 or so years ago I lived in a house where I replaced a pressure relief valve on the WH because it kept dripping. I was young so I kept trying that and it would fix it for a while. The house had a pressure reducing valve installed and the house was like 3 feet off a main street. I guess really close the a main line, so I assume high pressure. The third time the WH started leaking I borrowed a gauge from a buddy and put it on the laundry tubs. The gauge max went to 250 I think, as soon as I turned the water on it spiked it so hard I'm surprised the needle didn't break off. Replaced the PRV and never had a problem again. Unfortunately my roommates and I never enjoyed how nice our shower was again. You pretty much didn't need soap. That shower was like a pressure washer. Best shower I ever had. HAHA
    russhmeyer
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Surprised the only issue was a weeping relief valve.....
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Glad to here you found a competent individual!
    russhmeyer
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
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    Gordy said:

    Glad to here you found a competent individual!

    He SEEMS to think his fix will solve the problem? I fail to see the mystery, I prefer a bit more confidence...As soon as the new guy touches it he owns it...Bad situation all around, caused by greed and stupidity...The tech that did this must be held accountable, then should start filling out applications for entry level jobs, Burger King and McDonald's come to mind...

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