Help! Does this in floor radiant install look right?

Audio27 · March 2016

First time poster here, so be patient with me. I'm in the process of building a home in JUNEAU, Alaska, back closer to a glacial area that runs 8-10 degrees cooler than the rest of the town most of the year. As such, I'll see an average April - Oct temp of about 60/45 degrees and the rest of the year 35/20. We are moderated by the ocean so we get plenty of snow but long stretches of temps below 10 degrees are uncommon.

My GC specd this 1800 sq ft home with a forced air heat pump system. My wife and family have allergies so we told them we would prefer hydronic, whole house radiant floor heat. They said, no problem, but the complexities will run you an additional $3,300 out of pocket. Well - we were sold on the efficiency and promise of warm feet so we pulled the trigger.

Today is Easter Sunday and the site was empty so I paid a visit and took some pictures. Now this system will have both a propane boiler for heat and separate propane on demand domestic. No supplemental heat has been mentioned.

Take a look at this staple up installation between floor joists. I'm just a consumer, but even casual reading online tells me I may be unhappy based on what in seeing here. As you can see in some instances the PEX actually has to jump away from the floor to get around other PEX that may or may not be for heat. This seems not well planned out.

Isn't there supposed to be conductive aluminum between the hose and the subfloor for proper heating? The GC told me this is the first time they are using this guy but he's a well known Heating and Plumbing outfit on town.

The insulation and walls are yet to go up, but I would want to say something before then if there is a concern.

Audio27 · March 2016

Photos now attached.

BobC · March 2016

Your pictures didn't post.

Find a good heating contractor that understands how to do radiant heat, from what you said I think your GC is shooting from the hip and really doesn't know what he is doing. He should be using plates with the pex attached at a minimum from what I understand. to get adequate heat into the space. Just stapling the pex to the underside of the floor is asking for trouble. This has to be done right or it's never going to work.

One of our members @rick in Alaska might be the guy to contact. If he doesn't do it himself he probably knows who you should be talking to.

Bob

Tinman · March 2016

You want to say something and I don't blame you. IMO, this will never work. You should absolutely have extruded aluminum plates secured to the floor and then the pex snapped into that - 8" on center.

If you want to cut to the chase with the heating contactor, ask him what his design supply water temperature needs to be. If he can't answer that question with a definitive number (not a range), it will tell you that he didn't do his homework. I already know that he didn't.

Rich_49 · March 2016

The system shown will not be adequate and you will not be happy . Your concerns are valid , I would bring it to the GCs attention immediately and have it corrected at no expense to you . Although not in your area you may want to contact Rocky Pavey at Rockys heating in Bearflanks and see if he may know someone in your service area that has at least a clue because this installer does not have one .

https://static.squarespace.com/static/50de4c94e4b0a05702aac0fb/t/511a6e48e4b0735b6626ef38/1360686664633/PlatelessInRadiantville.pdf

Audio27 · March 2016

Bob C - I reattached the photos in comments. Did it show? Newbie here - thanks for your help.

Tinman · March 2016

Pics are there.

BobC · March 2016

@Audio27 I think I was typing while you were putting up the pics. It looks like the consensus is that you need a different plan for this radiant project to work.

Bob

Audio27 · March 2016

Thank you, all, for the feedback. I've noticed in a lot of design pictures that PEX for hydronic in floor is actually red. Is this guy even using proper hose? That's why I included a part number from the cluster originating in the garage.

Audio27 · March 2016

I'm apparently getting a Navien propane boiler and a Renai tankless hot water system. But clearly, I should be asking a lot more questions.

Rich_49 · March 2016

You don't want 2 gas appliances for this house . Your thoughts and concerns are warranted . However , that tubing is in fact correct and actually the highest quality . Maybe that's his claim to fame .

Audio27 · March 2016

@Rich - when you say I don't want two gas appliances, why would that be? No natural gas here, so two 100 tanks are being dropped outside and it seemed logical, and cost effective, to have both a propane tankless water heater and boiler. I was told a combination unit was "a bad idea".

jonny88 · March 2016

How about a boiler and indirect not a Navien by the way.

Tinman · March 2016

I can't speak for Rich but I believe the consensus here would be to use an indirect water heater with a high end mod con that has a very good turndown ratio.

BobC · March 2016

Do you know if a heatloss has been done on the house? That is the first step towards knowing what you need.

Bob

Audio27 · March 2016

@BobC - I don't know. We have frame, roof, rough electrical, and rough plumbing so far.

Gordy · March 2016

Audio27 said:
I'm starting to question this entire build as I found these windows installed today in my "energy efficient build" that are rated for the middle of the country.

I'm apparently getting a Navien propane boiler and a Renai tankless hot water system. But clearly, I should be asking a lot more questions.

A u value of .30 is pretty mediocre if not less than. Skip the double fuel burning appliances, and get one that will do both heating, and DHW. A boiler with an indirect.

For the love of god get the radiant straightened out. Extruded plates are a must to get any worth while efficiency out of a mod/con boiler.

gennady · March 2016

I had seen something like this, and had to remove and replace it , but with ultra-fin, not plates.

Gordy · March 2016

gennady said:
I had seen something like this, and had to remove and replace it , but with ultra-fin, not plates.

That will work also. Getting the average water temps down to a reasonable area where the boiler can condense always is a benefit.

kcopp · March 2016

You do realize by questioning this stuff you are going to put them all on the defensive.... tread carefully.
Your project will be dealt a set back for sure AND there are a number of concerns for sure.
The system may work but it will not work efficiently or when it gets very cold.

Audio27 · March 2016

@kcopp - my number one concern is efficiency and running the system at the lowest possible temperature and still achieving comfortable whole house heating when it's 20 degrees.

So I'm not going to question all this stuffl necessarily, but not using extruded plates seems like the biggest problem combined with the fact that his staple up doesn't even lay flat across the span of typical area because of poor planning.

Are you suggesting I don't question it because someone might get defensive? That seems detrimental to me and my pocket book over the long term.

Also - a few commenters on here basically said the guy doesn't know what he's doing and i don't think that's an exaggeration. It was a head scratcher the minute I walked in there.

pecmsg · March 2016

You might want to contact a Licensed Engineer concerning the lay out and design before confronting anyone. I also question the holes that were cut!

hot_rod · March 2016

A heat load calculation should have been done, see if that happened.

Once you have a room by room load number you can determine what type of installations are needed or what the options are.

Staple up tube can and does work and was promoted by Wirsbo, now Uponor for years. It has a limited output and requires higher operating temperatures, plenty were installed in cold climates like MN.

No question that better conductors like transfer plates will lower operating temperatures, and leverage condensing boilers if that is in the plan.

Ask for the halted calc from a manufacturer or experienced radiant designer. there are some simple,e adjustment possible once you have some actual numbers.

Tinman · March 2016

I approach every job I do as if it were my own home. I've taken out too many plateless jobs installed by other contractors that did not work. If you have to run a radiant floor at excessive supply water temperatures to meet the heat loss, that's not working in my book. It's overcompensating. You have the opportunity to make this right. I urge you not to pass up that opportunity.

Paul Pollets · March 2016

I'm amazed that someone would do a staple-up without plates in a cold climate. And without proper heat loss calcs. Not such a good idea as expressed above.
I'd be using a combo boiler like the Viessmann 222F, which can easily provide DHW for 2-3 baths, as long as there's no soaking tub. The boiler also uses propane without the need for a field kit for the gas valve.

Gordy · March 2016

Stephen Minnich said:
I approach every job I do as if it were my own home. I've taken out too many plateless jobs installed by other contractors that did not work. If you have to run a radiant floor at excessive supply water temperatures to meet the heat loss, that's not working in my book. It's overcompensating. You have the opportunity to make this right. I urge you not to pass up that opportunity.

If your going to do plate less staple up, and use those water temps may as well do
Panel rads.

Tom_133 · March 2016

Audio27

I think Kcopp was saying be careful how you approach it, not that you shouldn't say something, just be very careful with what you say and how you say it. Remember no one likes to hear they don't know what they're doing, or that it won't work, even when it's true. It has to be said, because you can't spend that kind of money and have it not work properly, but tread lightly.

Audio27 · March 2016

Thanks @Tom - my realtor and I went right to the builder and made our case. We called two other reputable plumbers in town before we presented the info. They both said that if this is primary heat it won't work as designed, and one said even with the boiler at 180 degrees will cause striping and shortened floor covering life.

I also presents a few comments from here. The GC will be the one to present our concerns to the installer, so we will be once removed.

Tom_133 · March 2016

I have been through this before as the guy saying it won't work, and showing the math and still the original heating contractor didn't take it well. I tried to approach it as I would want someone to tell me if the roles were reversed, it still went poorly. Personally I am a rip the band aid off type of guy and not a slow and painful type of guy. Hope it all goes well, maybe you can just ask to see his uponor heating design or the heatloss, or even how he came up with the water temperature he was planning on using? Then at least you know if any thing was done by math or you'll get the ole "this is how I have always done it" routine.

Audio27 · March 2016

They may very well tell me that this is how they have done it in every house with no complaints, but we can't be expected to be held to that type of install for years to come and simply "deal" with high heating costs, floor degradation, and potentially poor inside heating. So, I guess we'll see.

Thanks again to all for the solid feedback!

Dan DeBartolo
Juneau, AK

Paul Pollets · March 2016

There's no real excuse for deficient design or poor installations. The system should have plates, manifold design calcs with flow port balancing, and an auto mixing valve strategy with outdoor reset. Some boilers have an integral control that will allow exact setpoint design with priority DHW.

kcopp · March 2016

I was by NO means saying that you should ignore it....
Glad you were able to get back on track.

Audio27 · March 2016

To @Tom @Paul Pollets @kcopp @Stephen Minnich @BobC @Rich

Well - the response is basically "that's just the way it is." Read on if you care to.

Hi Dan,

I just spoke with our plumber and the staple-up installation is an approved
method to install the in-floor heat. I do agree that the aluminum plates
can be more efficient, but they are more expensive. If you would like to go
with the plates, we can get a price from the plumber to install those. We
have installed the in-floor heat like this for years and we have not had any
complaints about striping or hot/cold spots

For the windows, the reason they are not Energy Star rated is because they
changed their standards. They went from a U-Factor of .3 to .27. Our
windows are still the same energy efficient windows that we have always
used, they just don't meet the new 2016 energy star standard.

If you have any other questions, feel free to give me a call or stop by the
office.

kcopp · March 2016

Well His idea of doing it right and your/ ours differ.
Not surprising.
I guess it is back to the drawing board.
Did he get a heatloss done?
Was there a radiant design plan?
I guess those would have been good questions to ask before he started.

Harvey Ramer · March 2016

I wouldn't expect the plates to be installed for the same price as a staple up job. It would definitely be worth revisiting the numbers and see if you can strike some kind of a deal.

Like others here have mentioned, we have to do some radiant repairs that involve changing a staple up system to one with extruded plates. The thin foil plates aren't much good in case you were wondering. I have had customers make the remark (I can't believe how much difference that made! ) .

Another common mistake I see is not keeping the loops dedicated to individual rooms.

If they haven't got a complaints, it's because they've only done a few systems and those people didn't know any better. You do know better and I can almost guarantee you won't be satisfied with the performance unless you get the job properly done.

There are certain circumstances where staple up makes sense. Your's isn't one of them.

Harvey Ramer · March 2016

@Mark Eatherton
Might be time for the RPA to conceive a Radiant Flow Chart for homeowners and builders to help ensure they are purchasing the product they are expecting.

Mark Eatherton · March 2016

Who is paying the bills here? The GC is showing that he isn't real bright either. I'd check with the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) and make certain that the contractor is in compliance with the IECC (International Energy Conservation Code). This is "the code of the land" for any US states and territories.

The contractor and or the sub is required to show proof that an energy balance (heat loss/heat gain calculation) has been completed, and that the proposed system is capable of delivering the energy required to maintain the home at 70 during conditions of "design conditions".

If the home is a super insulated high efficiency home with loads of less than 10 or 15 btu's per square foot per hour, the system MIGHT be able to maintain. But if the heating contractor is specifying a "high efficiency" system, it will not perform better than 86%, when it is rated for the high 90's.

I hate dragging lawyers into this, but it might be a good idea to hire one to review the contract on the home. Much easier and less expensive to exercise your legal rights before its done than to wait until it's finished.

Just because that' the way they've always done it doesn't make it right.

ME

Zman · March 2016

By looks of things, you are up against the old "that's the way we have always done it" block.

I would recommend getting a complete picture of "how they have always done it" then decide whether that is something you can live with. It is unlikely you are going to change the mind of someone with that kind of high level thinking.

You may have to visit a job they have completed in order to figure it out.
The sloppy installation and the lack of plates may be the tip of the iceberg.

Some other questions to be asking:
What will the lengths of of tubing loops be? Minimum and Maximum?
Will it be an open system or a closed system?
Will they be installing a boiler or a hot water heater? How will it be sized? Make, Model?
Can you get a drawing or picture of the near boiler piping they have in mind?
Do they use outdoor reset?
Do they plan to install isolators where the tubing passes through framing so that the thermal expansion will not cause a "click, click click" noise?

You should absolutely do your own heat loss calculation in order to find out if this thing has a prayer of working.

Audio27 · March 2016

Well now my head is spinning. I talked to the plumber directly and he was good at walking me through his design and why he said this design has worked in Juneau. He also said that a heat loss assessment is available by only one person in town and it would cost upwards of $1200.

He also explained that his system is designed to work at 130 - 140, and they have never had striping issues. He feels that for the additional cost of aluminum channels they are a pain to install and may only gain me 10 degrees output on the boiler, so he'll still need to run at about 120. The City & Borough of Juneau inspects and approves these plateless installations, so apparently everyone else in the chain seems ok with it.

I don't know how the IECC is applied here but it seems to be UgetwhatUC, unless you have more money.

Mark Eatherton · March 2016

Ask him if he has any noise complaints. Better yet, ask him for the names and telephone numbers of some of his customer, and go out and look and listen and ask questions of the homeowner. Noise is a real issue with his proposed system. It is what I'd consider normal due diligence from an educated consumer. Take nothing for granted.

ME

RJMCTAFO · March 2016

Look up a program called Loopcad. I believe you can download it and do a trial period if you have all your sizing Information.

The wholesaler that carries the tubing should have the capability to provide a room by room heat loss with flow rates for each room. The fact no one is capable of providing that is a huge red flag. I do a heat loss on every boiler install or radiation replacement. This contractor needs to spend the money on getting the program as it is the most important tool we use.

Demand it if you cannot use the program I mentioned.

Help! Does this in floor radiant install look right?

Comments

Categories