Help! Does this in floor radiant install look right?

rick in Alaska

What every one else said about your system! It will heat, but how effective or costly? I don't know about Juneau, but in Homer the price of propane is still around $4.60 per gallon. If you use it for fuel for your heat, it is going to be very expensive, especially with staple up.
P.S. Rich and Bobc It is 731 miles from Juneau to Fairbanks, and 1076 miles from my house because of the route. Appreciate the referral, but too far to drive. LOL

Rick

SWEI

Most of us here have retrofitted plates to botched staple-up jobs more than once. It works, but it's not cheap. Do it now, even if you have to borrow a bit more money to get it done.

I would seriously consider finding another contractor to finish the job properly.

Audio27

Is this picture of an Uponor 1/2 hePEX channel product the kind of thing I'm looking for? Looks like it sells in boxes of 20.

Tinman

Yes.

Tinman

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Wirsbo-Uponor-A5080500-Wirsbo-Joist-Trak-1-2-Heat-Transfer-Panel-2111000-p

Audio27

@Stephen Minnich - Looks like I was in the right place because that is the exact web page where I grabbed the image that I shared. Thank you.

Audio27

I'm going to meet with the builder tomorrow with my realtor to make the case why I believe the aluminum plates should have been part of the design. If the costs of the plates themselves weren't part of their cost calculation, I will likely negotiate on that point alone.

My question to all you knowledgeable folks is - should I assume all plates are not made equal? For instance, @Stephen Minnich linked to a product above that comes 20 pieces to a case. Is this a good product? In an 1800 sq ft home with 8" on centers, about how many pieces/cases am I likely going to be getting myself into? I know we can't discuss pricing, but I also don't want crap.

Considering a heatloss doesn't seem to be in our future without another $1200, I just assume sink that cash into plates. Will I be right to do so?

Thanks also @SWEI and @rick in Alaska .

Dan DeBartolo

Zman

I would like to reiterate that the tubing is only part of the system.

Obviously a plateless installation is less than ideal and may not perform well.

There are also some workmanship issues with the lack of isolators and the sloppy crisscross of tubing.

The rest of the system is also very important.
It is imperative that you, as the homeowner are provided with these details so you can make an informed decision.

I would stop this portion of the work until this information is provided.

It is really just a matter of setting expectations so that there are no (more) surprises.

Your builder needs to step it up a few notches!

Gordy

No not all plates are made equal gauge, and fit is very crucial.

Tinman

I wouldn't share a link of a "crap" product. That wouldn't be very helpful. Radiant Engineering out of Bozeman, Montana makes the very best in my opinion but I've used miles of the Uponor plates and I can personally attest to their quality.

Tinman

And by Uponor plates, I'm talking specifically about the plates in the link, heavy duty extruded aluminum plates. They make other plates that are slightly heavier gauge than Reynolds Wrap.

Audio27

Sorry, I wasn't sure if that was more of a general example or not. So, should I expect to need at least 10 cases of these? Are we talking $1200 - $2000 on just the plates based on that price point?

Tinman

Amount of plates -
Multiply number of feet of tubing attached to the floor by .85.

Divide that number by 4 (4' plates).

That gives you an estimated number of Joist Trak plates.

Multiply that number by cost per plate.

Brewbeer

You really should do a heat loss analysis, everything is based on that.

If no one is willing to do it, you should do it yourself, it isn't that difficult, but it does require good measurements.

Paul Pollets

it also requires specialized software that has a cost. There are no free radiant-specific programs on the internet available for download.

rick in Alaska

Actually, wirsbo (Uponor) has their program that is available for download for free now. At least that is what it says. I believe it is a Windows program, as I could not get it to load on my Mac. Haven't tried it on the Windows side yet as I haven't had the time.
Rick

Paul Pollets

The ADS software (by Avenir) may be downloaded and used a few times before having to pay for it.

hot_rod

Take the time to perform an accurate load calc, room by room.

If in fact design day is 10 degrees and you have a tight, efficient home, the system proposed may in fact work as the manufacturers software would indicate.

No question plates would increase transfer and lower operating temperature. Is it necessary or worth the thousands it will cost? You have the best advise in Running some numbers to double check the calcs the installer should have.

SWEI

ADS (currently v 7.7) is still free.

The 'spreadsheet mode' in LoopCAD (Uponor calls it Radiant Express) stays active even after the demo has expired. Be aware that the two are not linked -- a project created in the LoopCAD graphic mode will not be openable in the spreadsheet mode, so you have to re-enter all the data.

Tinman

The picture in this old article by Siggy looks very similar to the one the OP posted.

Tinman

Sorry - document won't load.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Here's the John Siegenthaler article that @Stephen Minnich is talking about. Thanks for sharing, Stephen!

Tinman

Thanks for the assist, Erin!

Paul Pollets

Read it and weep!

Audio27

I appreciate all the feedback. I worked out a deal with the builder to get the final product to a plated install.

HaroldArmour_2

I agree with all of the above. I have seen an underfloor system, with much neater piping arrangement, do well because insulation with aluminum foam board was cut to fit beneath the loop in each floor trust space. This allowed for air to move and create an even distribution of heat under the floor. Plates are effective but they do drive up the cost as well as discolor wood floors that may be above directly over the plated area. The floor coverings should be taken into consideration as that will make a difference in heat resistance. The system could be heated with a ground water to hydronic heat pump also that could take care of the domestic hot water as well. A buffer tank would be a good idea with the heat pump with the aquastat of the buffer tank bringing the heat pump on and the house thermostats bringing on the zone pumps. It would be a good idea to fully test the whole house system before covering the ceiling and walls. Of course forming all outside walls and end plates would be great.

Chad Reed

Staple up radiant has been around for a long time, and has worked well. It requires higher water temps, usually maxing out around 150 depending upon the design, and the insulation being installed correctly. You need a 2 inch air gap between the subfloor and the insulation. A lot of times, the insulators just jam it up, and the system will end up not producing as expected. A good way to ensure this doesn't happen is to put up a barrier to keep that 2inch air gap. This can be done with reflectix or some other material. At that point, the insulators can insulate to the barrier. This type of radiant can be considered antiquated at this point with the availability of modcons, and the plates. As far as the boiler is concerned, I would look at other manufacturers. I'm not a big fan of that boiler. With regards to the boiler for heat, and a thankless for water, I'm not opposed to that. With a radiant system designed with plates and outdoor reset, you can keep the boiler running at low temp and in the condensing range all season long. If you add an indirect to the boiler, you will end up in the high 80% range during domestic mode. With a high efficiency thankless, you stay in the high efficiency range throughout the domestic production. It will also modulate off of demand. By the description of your weather, it sounds like weather we see here in NH. Radiant installed correctly is great! Installed poorly, it is a headache!

hydronicbill

You may want to look at these FlexPlates also, owing to the contractor's penchant for crossed-over tubing and diagonals (not standard practice). They are easy to install & cut but are more expensive than the extruded aluminum. Beware also the holes through the joists should have pipe insulators to reduce expansion/contraction noise of the tubing, especially the way the tubing is run on those diagonals. Personally, I'd make the contractor do them over correctly. Also, mod-con boiler & indirect is the only way you'll be able to afford to operate system.

SWEI

We used the FlexPlates on a staple-up remediation job a couple of years back. Tore down the entire first floor ceiling, which was finished in Venetian plaster. The amount of recessed lighting cans, wiring, plumbing, and DWV pipe made aluminum plates out of the question. It worked OK (and saved the job) but they don't fit tightly over standard PEX tubing and they need a LOT of staples in order to keep them in contact with the subfloor.

There's plenty of room there for extruded aluminum plates (and they cost less, too.)

Gordy

Extruded omega profile is the best way to go if possible.

Audio27

I want to recognize that the builder worked with us, and because the plates weren't obviously a part of the original install they planned on, I had to pick up the material cost.

Here is a photo of the progress so far. I'm feeling a lot better about this already. Consumer diligence can be a pain in the butt for those offering the product, but I would only have myself to blame if I didn't ask questions.

BobC

Glad to hear you were able to get together n this, that should work out fine.

Bob

Gordy

you won't be sorry. The output will be greater with lower water temps. Another gift that keeps on giving like insulation.

SWEI

That's a lot more like it.

Speaking of insulation, be sure the ends of those joist bays get a good dose of it. Romex that close to the ends makes it somewhat challenging, but you can cram unfaced batts in there and then cover the space using foamed-in XPS.

Audio27

Yep. Builder is doing unfaced between first and 2nd floor. I believe there may be a different strategy in the crawl space. Thank you.

SWEI

Audio27 said:

Yep. Builder is doing unfaced between first and 2nd floor.

Not sure if I was clear or not, but I was referring to the rim joist area. It needs both good insulation and additional air sealing.

Audio27

@SWEI - thank you for the clarification.

Mad Dog_2

Homeowner is Alaska. I've done plenty of staple up jobs AND had major renovations done on my own houses where I had to step in and FIRE certain trades because they were "hosing" me. For all the aforementioned reasons the other guys gave, get your money back from GC and hire a real radiant contractor. It's YOUR $ and you'll be stuck with Bum system. Mad Dog

kcopp

Is it me or does it look like that outside set of loops is practically touching the outside plate....?

Gordy

kcopp said:

Is it me or does it look like that outside set of loops is practically touching the outside plate....?

No good eye. Should be away at least 6- 8 inches. No sense in heating under the wall plate. Also that tubing will not be actively heating the space above.

Recommend spooning those so you get more clearance from the sill .