Press Fittings

Unknown

Good point about the copper

The past year or so we've been geting batches of copper that are either oversized so much you have to hammer the fittings on , or undersized that the fitting slides on by gravity alone . Sizes 1/2 inch to 1 1/2 , with the biggest problem size being 1 inch . With the 1 1/4 inch M pipe you can see a clear ridge on the outside that runs all the way down the pipe .

In 20 years of work , this is the first time I ever had problems with pipe diameters . Someone , somewhere relaxed the rules of tolerances on the copper we use .

Has anyone checked the copper itself on this problem job ?

ALH_4

...and

if the pipe was suspected to be the problem, Viega would certainly have mentioned that in the letter. I have no idea why they would offer to pay fix leaks in threaded adapters, unless maybe they have had manufacturing problems with them in the past. Maybe it gives the owner something without Viega having to admit the Propress fittings leak? Why no straight explanation???

old oil man

Expando

Steve,

We have used expando for years, great product. We can
no longer find it locally. Any idea where it could be
purchased?

John Pughe

old oil man

Expando

Steve,

We have used expando for years, great product. We can
no longer find it locally. Any idea where it could be
purchased?

John Pughe

old oil man

Expando

Steve,

We have used expando for years, great product. We can
no longer find it locally. Any idea where it could be
purchased?

John Pughe

Ken_40

I am aware of two \"white papers...\"

One from the PHCC, the other, from ASHRAE.

Both will be damning.

ScottMP

As have many,

I have been following this thread with great interest. My company has two machines and have been thinking about a third.

I had not seen this problem on our jobs, BUT thanks to this thread having been checking VERY closely. I have seen a few small "weeps" with Anti-freeze.

IS THIS a new problem with fittings ? Manufacturing ?

I also am not pleased with the outcome but at the same time ONE QUESTION comes up.

How Prevelant is this in the industry ??

How many Wallies have had this problem ??

I say we ALL check our jobs and report back here.

Scott

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deltat

Why were there no samples taken?? I believe that it is standard operating procedure for companies to cut out a faulty fitting and examine the tubing as well as the fitting. Was this done?

S Davis

> Why were there no samples taken?? I believe that

> it is standard operating procedure for companies

> to cut out a faulty fitting and examine the

> tubing as well as the fitting. Was this done?



deltat,

No Viega never asked me or the homeowner that I know of for samples, it is my opinion they already knew what they would find, and there were Viega street fittings into regular Viega fittings so it has to be a fitting and or o-ring issue.

Edit: I meant at the time of their Inspection of the system they did not ask for samples of the pipe or fittings.


S Davis

Tom Speed

Propress & anti-freeze \"leaks\"

I have been using hydronic antifreeze since the mid 70's through 1999 in conventional soldered joints with 50/50 and lead free. I had leaks through Spirovents, threaded joints, air vents, other openings including soldered joints. Purchased Propress tool in 1999, with no copper connected, (Propress) joint leaks, but leaks in Spirovents, threaded joints, air vents, etc. I was told over 20 years ago by a so-called expert that molecules of anti-freeze are smaller than water and can leak. I have yet to see water leak through the "leaking" joints that I experienced, only the appearance of the tacky anti-freze substance. Just one man's opinion.....and experience.

Steverino

Viega did want to cut out pieces. With no offer/gaurantee of even paying for the repairs created by this action, I said no. The system is rather squeezed for space and difficult to repair for most joints, especially using propress. I would have soldered the repairs and that would look unacceptable to me.

There was no further request for samples after the visit.

When one is simply going to state they are not leaks under the definition of the company, what is the point of cutting up my system for me.

Dirty Hands Dale

Harold by not giving them a fitting I can see that bieng used agianst you.

It is something they could hold over your head.

I am positive you could hide a solder joint somewhere, I do understand you home is higher end home and you want even the mechanical features to be appealing.

I still think you should stand your ground but how can they get an understanding of what happened by just looking at the outside of a fitting?

I always cut pro-press leakers in half to see what is going on, just to educate myself.

Steverino

They went to the contractor and told him to cut samples. I believe they had already refused to take any responsibility for his time spent fixing the threaded leakers on my system and others. My understanding was that they did not offer to compensate him for his time and materials for cutting and repairing samples. Parts of the system would have to be drained and the fluid removed from the site, antifreeze replenished, and air removed from the system again. I saw no reason for Stacey to eat anything more on this. In addition I was not happy about cutting up my system with no assurance of an overall repair.

The subject was not reopened during the visit from the Viega people. Please remember - their position is that the green places on the pipe ARE NOT leaks. As an outside observer, cutting some connections apart to see why it is not leaking would seem like a bad move legaly. And do keep in mind the published instructions for using the propress system.

I suspect much of the delay in this process has been because their lawyers were running about. Given disclosures supplied in writing by Viega I would guess the lawyers were also unhappy.

They may have all the samples they want if they take out the system and solder a new one in.

heatboy

Have you or Steve.................

..........tried cleaning up the fittings with steel wool or something? If you did, does the "leak" return? If it doesn't reappear................

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Unknown

in stock

here at my office

C. Joslin Viega Field QA Manager

Press fittings.

To Whom It May Concern:

Recent blog postings from Stacey Davis, a hydronic radiant heating contractor and H. Harrington, a homeowner, have erroneously characterized Viega as unresponsive to a warranty claim. Their allegations simply are not true.

Davis installed a hydronic system at Harrington’s home more than two years ago. The home still is not occupied. The system, under pressure for that entire time, has exhibited minor stains in the system control area.

Viega did not abandon an effort to evaluate the claim and sent three trained factory personnel at its expense to the homesite to inspect the piping system. That inspection confirmed there was visible, glycol residue at 4 threaded connections in the control area and evidence of residue on several non-threaded press fittings. Evidence of glycol residue in either copper press, threaded or solder fittings is not uncommon, given glycol’s characteristics. There was no evidence of dripping or puddles at the connections which exhibited glycol residue and there was no moisture showing during the inspection.

Per normal warranty procedures, Davis was requested several times by Viega to remove the representative fittings and return them for examination. In October 2006, Davis offered to remove and return the fittings for a sum of $2,695. That offer was rejected by Viega as unreasonable. The request to remove and replace the representative fittings would have confirmed whether they had been properly installed at the outset or whether the parts were defective.

Viega has made a reasonable and responsible effort to respond to the claims made by Davis and Harrington.

Viega continues to be willing to examine the four adapters further under its normal warranty claims procedure and to provide four replacement adapters in order to allow the removal.

Viega does not intend to further discuss this particular claim in this public forum, but, given the postings by others, feels the need to clarify the facts.

Bernie Riddle_2

Guaranteed these guy Harold is looking for a free system at the expense of the manufacturer. complain complain complain untill its free. i couldn't imagine going Thu life as a scammer like he's doing

Ken_40

Dear Viega,

With or without your permission (since this is a public forum), your response shall be included in the white paper ASHRAE will publish in the near future.

Should you wish to provide further input for the issues and resolution you have determined to date, please notify us as soon as possible.

Since I am authoring the ASHRAE white paper, my address is ken.secor@wildblue.com.

Should you wish to supply further iformation, it will be as confidential as you wish it to be, within reason of course.

ALH_4

Ken

Is your email .net or .com? I notice it is .net in the author line of your posts.

Just want to make sure you get any input Viega sends.

Steverino

Interesting point of view.

I have already paid for the system. I won't do it again. Replacement causes me grief and all I would get is back to where I was supposed to be , but without leaks and potential oxygen infiltration. Perhaps you could expound on your idea of "free", how this is defined as a "scam", and why you don't post at the end of the thread where people will be more likely to see it.

S Davis

Get the facts straight

Chris,


You need to get some of your facts straight, this heating system has been installed for one year and three months and has had glycol in it for about one year, also it has only been used for teporary heat for a total of maybe two or three weeks during this period, This is about an 8000sqft home and it is not uncommon for construction to take longer than one year, also Raulf Bauman had me include lost time I had from fixing MIP adapters that were leaking on other jobs in that estimate to you.
If I was to take out the fittings in question I would be removing almost the entire system as I would estimate about 90% of the fittings are leaking glycol, this would leave Harold without a heating system.
Also of the four adapters you offered to fix only two had been leaking and the other two had just been driped on, I fixed those a month before you came to the site so you have offered to fix two of the few fittings that are not leaking in the system, great warrenty program you have.
I have two other jobs that are showing the same glycol leaking past the sealing element, I am in the process of talking to the customers about obtaining fitting samples and sending them to a independent testing lab for analysis, and I will also be forwarding samples, and the findings to ASME as well as others.
And incase anyone forgot what they look like here are some more pictures, by the way they have gotten worse since these were taken.

S Davis

S Davis

System Pictures

This is what the system looked like before it started leaking.




S Davis

Ray Landry_3

Stacy, it is sad that this is the answer you have recieved from Viega regarding the warranty claim. Like every other response from them so far, it leaves much to be desired and I'm sure is forcing many others to put down their pro press machine for awhile. I know that I have. I had a very similar situation to yours and was promised a follow up visit from viega engineers and never got any response other than 'the pictures sent do not include any evidence of leakage, the glycol's charecteristics cause it to seep from o ring seals..' GREAT!

I would also say your labor price is not ridiculous at all considering all the phone tag it seems you've been playing, as well as the new glycol I would assume you would need to buy.

Anna Conda

Don't anybody step on my jaw... it fell on the floor somewhere. I'm really dismayed that this company seems to be raising the bar on quality standards. We've never considered such seepage to be acceptable with soldering or any other kind of connection; why should it be deemed acceptable with this product? Yet that's exactly what this company seems to be saying. "Sure, it looks like sloppy hackmanship, but that's okay" - is that going to become our new modern standard of quality? No wonder pride in craftsmanship is going down the tubes.

Leo G_99

Mr. Joslin

That should be Mr. Davis and Mr. Harrington. Please, no need to be rude.

Leo G

S Davis

more facts

Mr. Joslin also states in his post that during their visit "There was evidence of Glycol residue on several non-threaded press fittings" I was at the site today and counted almost 40 fittings showing signs of glycol seeping past the sealing element, I would say that would qualify as more than just several.


S Davis

Mark Hunt

So


that's it then? Leaks are normal? Wait,,,,,,leaks are not leaks?

And you are the ONLY guy on the face of this planet that ever had this happen?

HAHAHAAHA!!!!

Note to guys that have never had an issue..........when you DO have an issue, this is how you will be treated.

Mark H





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S Davis

Lack of warrenty

Well I tried to contact Viega about warrenty help on a few other jobs that had numerous threaded fitting leaks they said they were working on them, but now they will not get back to me so it appears they are not going to help with those issues either.
Also it appears one of the local supply houses might stop selling Viega fittings because of this issue.






S Davis