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Press Fittings

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Comments

  • Jerry_15
    Jerry_15 Member Posts: 379


    Now this is scary. Still waiting for Viega to weigh in. Looks like a melt=down in every sense of the wprd. Luckily I don't have to deal with glycol, but...
  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    Preaching to the Choir

    Oh Ken, Ken , Ken , Ken. You'd fit right in with us on our Friday night dinners. I have said this before but isn't amazing that the great so called mechanical wizards of the day are defined by the equipment they install (or sell) and not by their own ability.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    So,

    What are we having for dinner this coming Friday?

    Sauerbratten mit spetzle? Kassekuchin for dessert?
  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    Normally

    Venison steak sandwich stuffed with cheese and mushrooms is the current house special. Then we usually sit around and take inventory (cheap pot shots) of the weeks most unusual job. The thing that is sad is that most jobs, quite frankly are quite bizzar and don't seem that unusual anymore. What scares the crappola (sounds like a German Furnace name) out of me is when I walk in on a nice, neat, and fully functional mechanical room, because we all know this is not normal.
  • Tom R.
    Tom R. Member Posts: 139
    Crimped tubing

    Does anybody know what crimping a tube into anything but round does for the flow?
  • Don't forget

    the umlauts, Ken; spaetzle and Kaesekuchen.

    You can't really compare what they do in Europe to what we do here. They are 10 years ahead of us; a different mindset. They have hydronics in their blood and we are just infants with a new pacifier. Why else do you think our designers, engineers and tradesmen go to ISH in Frankfurt?

    We fumbled around with polybutylene while they never bothered with the stuff; we tried to make condensing boilers and have consistently failed; we tried to grasp outdoor reset and are just now getting the message.
  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    Frankfart

    I'm not sure what happened in Frankenfart. But when you mentioned Outdoor reset, we had it here long before they did.
  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    :-)

    I'm not sure what happened in Frankenfart, butt when you mentioned Outdoor reset, we had it here long before they did.
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Dan

    I think it's more an issue of the Euro cut threads having a different "interference" angle than a difference of actual diameter. I have checked diameters both at the land and the groove of the thread with a vernier caliper and found <.002" variation in all of the MPT fittings I've looked at. We've noticed that some MPT adapters will thread in nicely on some female fittings and not on others. The variation seems to be in the screwee instead of the screwer. (The female fitting) Different material female fittings, mallable iron, brass, copper, seem to accept the PP brass MPT fittings with different levels of success. One place we nearly always have issues with is when joining brass to brass. An example would be using a ProPress MPT fitting with a brass Viega pex manifold. You'd think that because both are made by the same company the "fit" would be right but that's not the case. Sometimes the male fitting will "get tight" with 4-5 threads showing and sometimes it will bottom out with almost no effort at all. Regardless of what Ken says, we have found the hemp/teflon paste combo to be nearly bulletproof. No issues with corrosion are evident on 2-3 year old jobs I have gone back to and examined.
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    Taking a Leak

    I read the denial of warranty from Viega... the statement that because glycol leaves a residue and that it is not indicative of a greater problem rings hollow with me.

    It is like saying, "only because you have glycol you see evidence of a leak; if you have only water, there will still be weeping but no evidence of it". (Save the mineral content that was mentioned in one post.)

    This kind of response is disturbing to me, the deflection being the least of it.

    We just finished phase one of a two-summer school project where we allowed the use of a press system (Nibco was the system, not Viega in this case). Most of this year's production was a coupling system for larger pipe (2-1/2" through 8"). Next year the runouts and risers will be done, 2" and under. And yes, the system will evenually be glycol when we change out the 35 year old boilers.

    The appeal of the press system in labor saving (avoiding hot work a bonus), was the biggest incentive. Not worth the risk, no way.

    I will be removing mention of press type fitting systems from my specifications because of this.
  • Europe vs NPT

    Steve,

    Euro threads are straight, not tapered and are 1/2 a thread off per inch. Totally different contact area and your hemp and dope is the only solution... or you could use EXPANDO.

    We had one EU manufacture that tried to make a tapered EU thread.... to not much success (read LEAK$). Took a little bit of leakage to convince these guys that either you are NPT or not.

    wheels
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    They also claimed

    to be first with radiant; even though we invented it in the 1940's.

    They also claimed to be first with PE plastic tubing, and then found the need for O2 barriers because all the boilers installed with same, rotted out after a week "in service." Had the government not stepped in and banned plain jane PE, They'd probably still be rotting boilers out in weeks!

    They are great at things we don't need. Hot air is verboten. No one makes a decent steam boiler. Most things are priced uncompetitively. This is NOT becasue of superior engineering costing more. It because their labor problems are so severe and labor costs bordering on obscene. The cost of shipping is an added cost. They can't make a condensing oil boiler, they can't design a reasonable condensor with gas that will vent at "normal" lengths, and parts are anything but "readily available."

    Then there was the legendery Vallaint debacle. Huge market assualt aimed at the U.S., marketing that rivals Viessmann's and all of a sudden, POOF! They left town in the middle of the night, holding all contractors, wholesalers and reps holding a rather substantial "bag."

    Does anyone remember that? Have any idea how big Vallaint is compared to Viessmann?

    It's the debacle no one from the other side of the pond wants to talk about; brush it under the rug. The reason? If we remember the commitment of Vallaint to penetrate the U.S. boiler market, and the marketing blitz and budget they deployed to succeed; and after jumping through all the legal and code issues to comply with our standards, they ultimately failed rather miserably; we might hold back on being so "supportive" of yet another euro maker onslaught. Should fears of a Viessmann/Vallaint parallel be contemplated, the rumor alone would make us all think twice about any euro-boiler. Having a euro boiler myself, I'd hate to see that happen.

    And thanks Alan for cleaning up my Deutsch spelling(;-o)



  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    So,

    What you're saying is:

    The most highly engineered, and doubtless best boiler makers of europe, cannot afford or design a product they wish to market on this side of the pond....

    The most modern technologically advanced boiler on earth, most finely crafted boiler on the planet...

    Can't afford to buy a 1" NPT tap to produce a boiler that will not leak when exported to the North America - without using an 1800's pipe thread compound we still call "hemp"?

    And we pour endeless praise on this manufacturer?

    Let me just remind you about what I now call, the KS-factor.

    "Great marketing will overcome mediocre engineering every day; and typically with a ratio of 2:1"

    Let's hear it for German Hemp!

    The greatest boiler maker on earth can't afford a 10-dollar NPT tap. Brilliant engineering at its euro-finest!



  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    I'm gonna

    go polish up my vailant rabbit key chain after that Ken..wonder what it's worth? ;)
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Hmmm...

    It's amazing what joints will and won't hold.

    After the plumbing company here discovered that the basement toilet was hooked up to the hot water supply (steaming toilet) the apprentice took a shortcut and used a slip coupling... which held pressure until about 5 months later.

    Due to good fortune, we caught the leak early and before it was able to cause significant damage... and that slip coupling covered one of the pipes only 2mm, with 60psi of working pressure and an unlimited supply of water behind it. The master plumber was less than amused. Furious!

    Perhaps these propress leaks are simply tiny amounts of fluid evaporating/transpiring via/past the seals. Sort of like wine bottle corks allowing water from inside the bottle to evaporate out, particularly if the bottle is stored upright and in a dry environment.

    This process is called ullage, if memory serves me correctly and is the reason that big-name chateaus will always hang on to batches of prior vintages, offering top-ups and recorking (for a friendly fee, I imagine). So anyone have some fine glycol from the 2001 harvest? :-P
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,512
    And yesterday,

    I sent an eBlast to our 5,000+ subscriber list, making them aware of this thread. Many have read it since.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Perhaps...

    The C tube extruders, when drawing tube, use a sulphur or oil based coolant in the dies, the residue of which may be "eating" our EDPM 'o'-rings?

    Ever notice some tubing seems to have a trace "glaze" of something "slimy" on the surface? Perhaps a "protectant" film; perhaps a manufacturing process residual?

    Maybe we need to wipe off the penetrating end with acetone or steel wool, to assure the longevity of the EDPM seal ring; protecting it from being compromised from whatever is making this occur with alarming frequency?

    Perhaps the copound used for the EDPM needs to be tweaked?

    Since the whole press-fitting is euro-tech (even though we utilized this method to attach radiator hose in autos 50 years ago), perhaps we should have known from jump street it was suspect (;-o). Just look at how well "engineered" their boiler threads are for the American market they so desperately want to invade...
  • mtfallsmikey
    mtfallsmikey Member Posts: 765
    Stupid question of the day

    Ken has a good point, hence my question: Does anyone clean the copper with sandpaper on plumber's cloth or steel wool before using these fittings (which I have never used!) If I HAVE to use compression fittings on copper, I sand it, just like I would do with soldering. Little or no problems with leaks that way.
  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    pro-press for steam

    Viega also touts that their fittings (with a different o-ring material) can handle up to 15 psi steam. Hmmmm. Having just seen their salesman double-talk about glycol, I am having doubts and regrets about buying and using their stuff for anything, much less steam. At least I bought it on e-Bay at a discount. I suspect after this, much more pro-press stuff is going to appear on e-Bay! ;-) I am glad I didn't use it for fuel gas.

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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    Not stupid at all...........

    With new copper, I just ream it and press. If your cutting wheel is sharp, there is no worry about deburring the outside of the pipe. On old work, depending on the condition of the copper, I might clean the outside, but as with new, always ream the tubing, which is done regardless of connection style.

    I have at least 2500 press fittings in use. Old copper, new copper, glycol (50/50 mix) and have even pressed fintube together (a no-no, I am told). I cannot see ever going back to soldering with the speed of ProPress and it's huge labor savings.

    hb
    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
    Wheels

    The threads I was refering to are the ones "they" try to cut to NPT standards not the typical Euro BSP non tapered. I've encountered this on a lot of imported fittings from all over the world, not chust the Fatherland. Seems especially pronounced on brass fittings, valves and other piping accoutrements for some reason.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Jeff

    Do you do service? Or just installs?

    If the latter, which you told me once is all you do, you wouldn't have occassion to witness your own crimps, a few years after installations. Or did you not say that?

    Hell, I can't remember what I had for lunch a few hours ago, never mind what you had to say last time we wrote/spoke. Which BTW was about the guy in Nazereth and the hydro-air job you never responded to me about even after I left two or three messages on your phone and many e-mails you never bothered to respond to.
  • Tom R.
    Tom R. Member Posts: 139
    ProPress failures

    Why try to figure out why this system doesn't work. Let the people who make it do that. Until they can show the world they have no problem jobs, continue using solder and flux on a clean joint and sleep better. As for cost savings - how much is a call-back worth?
  • HAROLDS
    HAROLDS Member Posts: 9
    Propress leaks

    After reading all of this I may have lost something.
    Does the system leak?
    We have used propress for years since it first came out.
    Most was used for process cooling (chilled water 45deg.)with anti-freeze. No leaks. Many hot water heating systems No leaks.
    I find the lack of response from the rep. to be alarming
    Is this enough to cause us to stop using it not yet, but the more feedback we all get the better we will be.
    Harold
  • jim lockard
    jim lockard Member Posts: 1,059
    Hey Viega

    your up, alot of guys here have major investments in your products. Let's have the truth about whats going on. J.Lockard
  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    The old stand-by rule

  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    The old stand-by rule

    You can only choose two. Choose wisely.

    Time, cost or quality
  • What about the gas piping ?

    if the extruding oil bothers the orings what is happening with the gas piping they are trying to sell? I must say I am staying with solder, even that is not reliable at times just had to return half a case to Barnet adn tell them not to call with any more specials for me. It was silver bearing and it ran through joints like water. It makes me see how much trust we as contractors must have in those that supply us with our materials. Kind of makes you think.
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    Harold,

    We must all remember something. Some of us are design/build contractors. Some of us do installs only. Some do service work only - or, as well.

    Only those who do service would be privvy to press fitting leaks occurring months or years after the install. When a guy is an installer (not doing service work) all he can report is what happenned the first few days of an install, how wonderful and fast this method is, not what happenned two years later.

    I fear the many posters who do service work may be viewed as an insignificant voice, despite them in fact being the ONLY voice that should speak to this serious issue!

    If posters could identify the basis of what their experiences have been, it would remove the short vs. long term (the latter of which, is the only observation that really matters) basis of their - and therefor our - evaluations.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,512
    Excellent point,

    and well made.
    Retired and loving it.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    O.K. I'll step up

    We have been using the Pro-Press system for about four years now. We do new installs, BUT alot of service. We do allmost ALL the service on jobs that we have installed. We live in a small town that has Alot of repeat customers.

    I belive we have had two failures from the system.

    One from an indirect we installed and someone ( ahem ) forgot to press the fitting. It held for six months untill someone purged the line.

    Second failure was sent to Viega and was returned with photographs showing a foriegn body, presumable a wood splinter, in the fitting. We now run our fingers in every joint before pressing.

    I am not sure what caused the leakage on the joints that started this thread BUT we have not had that experience.

    We have Thousands of these joints out there.

    Scott Milne
    Milne Plumbing And Heating Inc.

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  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,540
    No Problems

    here either, 2 years,probably 2000 fittings. No leaks except those due to operator error.

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  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    But...

    Have you been back to look at all those fittings after one year of use (or longer)?

    We're also not just talking about water dripping on the floor, we're talking about trace stains from water leaks small enough to go undetected for years, before it gets to be flood city; like the one posted at the top of this thread.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,540
    These have

    all been used in boiler replacements and we service most but not all and I have not seen any problem. Do you know how many leaking copper male sweat adaptors(particularly at tankless coils) I have changed in the last 27 years? This is turning into a Viega witch-hunt! Although they certainly haven't helped themselves in this matter at all! Hopefully they'll step up and resolve this. The response bothers me more than the leaks!

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  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    I'm right behind you Scott

    We've used Propress about exclusively for the last 2+ years. I get back to nearly all of our jobs on a regular basis for service and routine maintenance. I noticed one job, running high temp (180*), that had the green creeping out of the fittings, Just about all of them had it. Interestly, this particular job is not connected to any makeup water. We used a glycol "pig" to feed makeup if needed utilizing a standard #30 sized expansion tank. I looked back in our records to see what the precharge in the tank was because I was curious to see if it was losing bodily fluid at a rate fast enough to be concerned about. The initial charge was 40# and the gauge read 37-38# after two years. To me, that's what you would normally encounter during that time via valve stems, threads and other seals in the system. Cerainly nothing to be alarmed about but the greenaround all the fittings caught me by surprise. I might add that this is a very small volume system of probably less than 15 gallons total and is filled with a 50/50 concentration of glycol. None of the fittings showed anything that you would call an actual leak.

    On another job that has been in service about a year, I noticed 2 out of probably over 100 fittings that were green. This job is medium to low temp (max <150*).
    It too is fed by a "pig" that showed only normal pressure drop on a system with probably over 120 gallons in it.


    I wonder if there is a correlation between the temperature and the seepage?

    At any rate, I don't have any plans of discontinuting the use of ProPress fittings. They look neat, they cut the time on even the most basic job by 1/2 and they are nearly idiot proof. (I personally need all the help I can get in that area, ask Ken)
    In addition, Viega as a company has invested a BUNCH of money here in the US and I feel they are here to stay and take care of business the way it should be. Give them a chance to figure out what's going on and present a solution.
  • subcooler
    subcooler Member Posts: 140
    It's an Oh-ring

    The correct application of an o-ring, think about it. They can hold back 4000psi in a hydraulic application, but leak at 12psi on a boiler system. Speculations of contamination of the pipe joint, the pipe itself, the tolerances of the crimp tool and the addition of glycol may have affected the integrity of this mechanical joint. What gives in this situation?

    They are all correct!!! If any one of these causes a break in the bond between the pipe, o-ring and fitting you’ve got a leak. Not to scientific, just the laws of fluid dynamics 101. The mechanical strength of this fitting is quite robust, but all the sealing power falls back on that little o-ring. In a hydraulic application the o-ring sits flat on the sealing surface!!!! Not radial!!!! The o-ring is sandwiched flat between two heavy mating surfaces. Even on that hydraulic hose that has a threaded o-ring connection, the o-ring gets squeezed flat not radial.

    The electric water heater element is round, but the o-ring gets squeezed flat. If any o-ring on earth should leak, it should be the one in the water heater. It gets extreme temperature changes, its water quality (from a boiler standpoint) is as bad as it gets and corrosion is a given. But I still don’t leak because I lie flat as I was made to. For my friends that lie radial, well to me that seems just a little radical. Think about it!
  • Ray Landry
    Ray Landry Member Posts: 203


    I'll chime in on this one. I posted a thread last week with the pics attached below in it. This job was a snow melt job with approximatley 180 gallons of fluid content and a 30% mix of glycol. No fresh water source, just a expansion tank changed to a glycol pig tank. This system is exactly one year old, no apparent leaks on the floor, but minor seepage through the joints 1/2 through 2". Not sure if maybe the press tool could be the issue? The tool was approximatley two years old at the time. I don't think it's the pipe because street fittings are showing seepage as well. I do installs and some service so I do still get to see past jobs and this is the only one I've seen an issue with so far.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Glycool leaks (seeps) from

    plenty of o-ring seals. These pics are from a two year old snowmelt. Glycol was in good shape, ph wise.

    I have also removed a bunch of 15- 20 year old solar systems lately. The systems with glycol show solder joints with very little solder remaining. I'm surprised they even held pressure. I suspect bad (low ph glycol) went after the 50 50 solder. I now silver solder all my glycol solar installs. Cheap insurance.

    I noticed the systems filled with Dow Syltherm a silicone transfer fluid, have copper in a near new condition and no effect on the soft solder joints.

    hot rod

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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    In all fairness, Vaillant

    has maintained an office for warranty claims in N.J. 856-786-2000 As recent as 3 years ago they replaced a couple 220 blocks for me no charge, no hassle. They committed to maintaining an office to handle warranty claims and have stood by that.

    Unlike some US built boilers, may I mention the Glow... brand :)

    Also Vaillant seemed to hit the market, at least in the Intermountain West, when all radiant systems were being installed with non barrier tube. I know because the Vaillant rep was also the rubber tube rep in that area :)

    When they dropped V and went with a US brand failures continued until the barrier issue resolved. The same rep was the Grundfos rep. They, Grundfos,to suffered through the same non barrier corrosion issues.

    Weil and Burnham suffered, as did HB Smith through this also but to a lesser degree in that area. I know because I installed and warrantied plenty.

    hot rod

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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    Ummmm...Hemp.....

    Sure tastes good, Ken

    Too bad we didn't go metric 20 years ago, like the rest of the world. Makes transition fittings a ****. Let's blame the Euro's for that, too. Since most fittings are made in the far east, I'd rather start blaming them for the industry's problems. The Germans need a rest.

    Viessmann used to make an aluminum heat exchanger for their early wall-hungs. They scrapped it. Wonder why???

    We need to sponsor a "Great Boiler/Burner Shootout". I can see it now...

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