Press Fittings

singh

Tom

You have seen "leaks"in systems with glycol on black,copper, valves,adapts before. Was the manufacturer of these fittings involved?
I don't think anyone here is a big fan of glycol.

Don't get me wrong, at this point . I believe Viega should agree to pay up for a repipe on this job, labor and materials, even if its all black pipe.
Just to show they are a class act, then amend their instruction manuals

At that point, it becomes a question of the future of propress and its popularity.

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Supply House Rick

Devan

No failures on Tectite(yet), the limitations are they only come in 1/2" - 3/4" & 1" (coming soon) and the fact they do not have years of field testing behind them. There has been leaks on every fitting ever made. And to answer your question "is this a leak"? Sure, it either held or failed...

The initial investment to get started with ProPress is considerable and Viega's response that "leaks with glycol are to be expected" is the issue. Is that info in the Propress manual?

What's the solution if you have an entire system done with ProPress and have glycol in system, based on the info provided by Viega. Do you have confidence in the product?

Rick

flush

adaptors

From my experience the european fitting threads are cut to the high end of tolerences, deep and most of the asian fittings are cut to the minimum tolerances, shallow so when you make your connections in mixed manufacturers you need to use additional tape or filler product to secure a positive seal.

Harold

Water too

Actually, I think I mentioned this earlier, when the rep talked to me after looking at the system he said water does it too, but it evaporates and you don't see it. That is, I suppose, if you have mineral free water.

Tom R.

Material defects

The only time I have encountered leaks from fittings involved sand holes in brass castings. Like you said, it is not a perfect world and all the fastening systems you mentioned have problems from time to time. But in almost every case, they can be traced to improper handling or poor workmanship, hardly ever to the device itself, and if so, not in the numbers seen here.

Constantin

Hmmm...

Could this be a question of degrees?

That is, oxygen molecules could also be migrating via valve packing, vents, and other potential open areas. How about PEX tubing whose barrier layer has been damaged during installation or production. How about copper castings with pinholes too small to let water through but large enough to let Oxygen through?

My guess is that some minute degree of oxygen migration in radiant systems is acceptable. And if you have a CI boiler, there is a lot of Fe to bind to before attacking the pumps and other Fe-based components like iron headers and other black pipe.

In systems with a stainless HX, PEX, and little other Fe-based componentry, I suppose the iron pump housings and iron manifolds would be the prime targets. The areas with the hottest water and/or thinnest sections would probably be the first to go.

I most certainly do not want to belittle your concern, indeed it is a good one. It's yet another question that manufacturers of press-fit questions should have thought of and have an answer for. Is there any online data?

singh

Yes

I do have confidence in the product , to date. I'm waiting for much more info than what is posted here.
Not saying anyone is to blame, but was it the tool,the pipe , the fittings, the glycol?? Let's wait, then we can decide for ourselves.
OK, there seems to be majority that they are "leaking" and Viega's "leaks with glycol are to be expected" is an unacceptable response.
I looked up their warranty info, they also state the fittings are not warrantied when "corrosive substances" are used. Does glycol count? Especially if PH not neutral? Hmmm.... if that's the case my confidence would totally dissipate, and I feel a stain (no pun intended) will be left on the industry and all involved.
Yes I have made a considerable investment, I like many others here have a vested interest in the outcome. I feel it necessary to look at all sides.


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Bill Pidgeon_2

Oxygen and Press Fittings

Constantin,

Since I don't know if my concern is really a problem, I have no basis to take issue with your response.

The pros here are a special group who are committed to craftsmanship and committed to greater use of hydronic heating. Their attitude and passion is remarkable given the "good enough" attitude that I often encounter. So, this is one of my favorite places to lurk - their passion is motivating, and I learn a lot.

I grew up in a house with hydronic radiant heat, but my current house has a forced air furnace. So, I know first hand that hydronic radiant heat is great and I will be converting to it. But I also know that most of my parent's neighbors gave up on radiant floor heat and switched to baseboards, because of leaks in the copper tubing in the concrete slabs. How many of those homeowners can be convinced that radiant heat is something they'd risk their money on?

So, I find it surprising that there is no demand for data on the migration rate of O2 through press fittings. That of course assumes there is no data, and I may be wrong - the pros may already know that oxygen is not a problem with these fittings.

However, if there is a problem, it could set back hydronic heating big time. All of the examples you mention are additive. So, adding a bunch of press fittings that (I ASSUME) allow O2 migration, and the problem multiplies. In fact, because it was a problem, there is the DIN 4726 standard that limits O2 migration to maximum of "0.1 milligrams per liter of tubing water content" according to Siegenthaler.

Many here raised the concern of getting lawyers involved in problems. Well one way to avoid lawyers is to be proactive and get answers before the $4000 boiler installation starts leaking well before its expected liftime. Level and plumb become trivial if a new boiler is required seven years later.

In summary, I do not know that oxygen migration is a problem with press fittings - I've not seen any data that says O2 migration is a problem with press fittings. But I believe logic indicates that if it is normal for press fittings to allow glycol and plain water to migrate out, then it is very likely that oxygen migrates into boiler systems. So, there is no way I will allow press fittings on a future boiler system in my house until until I see data that shows it is not a problem. For domestic water plumbing, I'm more open to it.

Bill

Constantin

Excellent points all around...

As I indicated above, I don't have the answers either. It is a interesting problem though!

I see that the "Profi-Press" system is approved for use with NG and propane, which would imply a degree of gas-tightness, even for oxygen. Those fittings feature a "leak detector" strip and yellow O-rings. Are they available in the US?

S Ebels

Interesting conversation RE: this problem

Had breakfast with the sales manager from a very large PP distributor and Jim French from Buderus this morning.
I asked the sales manager if they had seen any issues with ProPress fittings and glycol and he said without any hesitation that they had. He went on to explain that in nearly all cases that he was aware of the problems originated with the CU tubing itself, not the pressing tool or the fittings. Seems that some US manufacturers of tubing are not holding tolerance and in some cases are buying tube from overseas and reselling it with their label on it. They've seen tubing with out of round conditions as well as variable OD issues. That's right, variable OD even on the same length of tubing.

He went on to say that they have sold literally millions of PP fittings and have had virtually no problems with the fittings themselves. Some issues with tools and assembly techniques but nearly nothing with the fittings.

Just passing this on as information.

PS: Another interesting comment he made was how he referred to tubing that was imported. He said they sell tube that is "US or global". I asked what he meant by global and his response was that nowadays they frequently source tube from a single source overseas that may contain tube from different countries all on the same shipment. One time it may be China, the next may be Spain, Italy, Thailand or anywhere else you can think of. The world market is getting strange...........

Ken_40

Perhaps we can all help!

Some of us own very precise measuring tools, e.g., vernier calipers and micrometers.

Using 3/4" copper tubing as the "standard," A few of us could run the following national test. The database could be as follows:

1) Tube manufacturer's name:

2) Type: (M, L, or K)

3) Maximum outside diameter on the information imprint.

4) Maximum outside diameter 90-degrees from the information imprint.


5) Minimum outside diameter on the information imprint.

6) Minimum outside diameter 90-degrees from the information imprint.

Make sense?

Let's do it! Steve's input suggests perhaps we should.

There is a national standard either by ANSI or equally recognized authority in this country. Perhaps the acceptable variation of the U.S. tube is "outside" the euro-tool's ability to be absolute?

Wouldn't THAT be a ****?

subcooler

Or you could

use solder.

Leo G_99

just wrapping

up my latest install, and this thought has been banging through my head since this thread started. not sure if it is the tubing or fittings, but once again, I ran into the most common problem with copper nowadays. sometimes the tubing and fittings fit properly. Sometimes they are loose, and sometimes they are a real b**** to get together. I am wondering what are the tolerances from the press fitting mans. about tubing diameter? If the tubing is too thin, does the seal have a good enough friction contact? If the tubing is too thick, maybe the o-rings get dislodged or knicked?

Leo G

Perry_2

I am very highly skepticle of this claim...

Since I have toured tube mills, and have calipered potentially thousands of different tubes the claim of varying tolerences in tubeing as the culpret - and of tubing size changing in the same length - does not make any sense at all.

The dies and rollers used to make tubing can only produce tubing of the size they are - usually within a a thousands of an inch from batch to batch (and often within a half a thousands of an inch from batch to batch). This is well within ANSI tolerences. The dies and rollers don't wear out fast either (some tubing mills are using dies and rollers that are decades old - and still holding tolerences).

This claim makes no sense.

Now the problems with quality problems from different mills does exist - and it is usually in the quality of the alloy, heat treatment, and in the case of seemed tubing - sometimes in the welding process. And yes, some of those mills in some countries have a bad reputation on these issues. But not on dimensional tolerences.

Also, given that we are talking essentially pure copper tubing - the alloying and heat treatment problems are not likely to exist either.

Of course - out of round tubing does exist - because someone crushed it (which is rarely the mill).

I'd like to see examples of these out of tolerence tubes. Not just a claim that they exist. Given the equipment used - and the standard sizes on dies and rollers - I can't immagine how it is possible.

As they say in Missouri - Show me.

Perry

S Ebels

Perry

I'm just repeating what I was told and this guys' company is a huge pipe and tubing distributor in Chicago. The sell miles of tube every day so I would assume he's noticed something or he wouldn't have said it.

I can tell you from personal experience that there is a difference in copper tubing available today as opposed to even 4-5 years ago. The "soft" copper you get in an AC lineset for example is not nearly as mallable as it used to be. The "hard" copper seems to be more brittle, for lack of a better word. You can tell especially when using an abrasive or carbide toothed cutter.

We were installing a new R410 AC system this past summer and were removing the old line set. Both my guys commented that the old 7/8" suction line was about as pliable as rubber hose yet after 15 years of service. The new 7/8" suction was like trying to bend an anaconda that wanted to go straight. Bend it one time and have fun trying to bend it again. There was a huge difference and I don't think they make tubing different for R22 vs R410.

Like I said, just passing this along as information.

Not making excuses for Viega/Nibco/Ridgid et-al

Perry_2

The issues you describe are related to heat treating

I agree that their have been problems with heat treating from some of the mills.

I used to buy tubing for a Heat Exchanger shop. to use the phrase above - Miles of it. Even a decade ago we had to be carefull of sorcing copper alloy tubing from certain overseas producers due to alloy and heat treating problems (most of the tubeing I purchased was Admiralty Brass, or 90/10 Copper-Nickle). But never a size issue.

The same dies are used to make the different alloys in the same size. They might run Admiralty for a few days - then 90/10, then copper, etc.

Unfortunatly, most US manufactures of copper alloy tubing have shut down (I do believe that Olin still makes it in the US, and perhaps Wolverine). There is also a mill in Canada (a branch of Wolverine) - but they had other problems a decade to 5 years ago(lots of nicks in the tubing). Perhaps they resolved that.

The Mexican mill had a good reputation for high quality tubing. The spanish one was so so, China was horible - won't touch the stuff (and I know a few people who did - and were very sorry for it).

I also do not doubt the problem of mixed shipments if you are buying from a 3rd party. Usually larger orders are purchased directly from the tube mill. I would be very surprised if a major tubing supplier was not buying directly from the tubing mills.

Perry

S Davis

Copper Tube

Just a side note, the job that started this thread has Viega street fittings installed into Viega male adapters and other fittings that are showing signs of leakage, also the copper pipe is fron two different manufacturers one US and one in Mexico and both show signs of leakage.




S Davis

Floyd

I just can't understand this...

What could have caused the problem on this job.
Here is a pic of a snowmelt job that I finished last winter. The threads to the HX obviously have a leak. The propress fittings right above it are clean as the day I installed them.
Checked on this job today and LOOKED hard for any sign of leakage... this was all I found. This job has hundreds of fittings in it and no they didn't all have glycol. I couldn't find a single PP leak, anywhere. How a job could have so many problems in one place just baffles me to no end....

Floyd

ALH_4

tolerances

"There is even a standard for PEX tube... and yes I have seen tube within spec that slid easily in CFin."

Yep, I measured a bunch of tube, different brands, different crosslinking methods, and came up with the fact that a couple thousandths of an inch make all the difference between a snap-fit and a loose fit. Perhaps this is a case like that. I am not particularly familiar with the manufacturing methods for copper tube, but the aluminum extrusion dies would wear as they were used. This was a difficult problem to overcome as the extruder was accustomed to cutting dies to account for wear, which was not acceptable when a few thousandths meant the difference between happy customers and unhappy ones. If the snap fit was a little tight that was ok, but it had to start out dead on, not a little loose.

-Andrew

Luke Lefever_3

Yes- we have used ProPress G for natural gas in Indiana.

C. Joslin Viega Field DA Manager

Viega's on stie visit of material

Viega QA Department.

Viega believes firmly in the quality of the ProPress product. We are looking into this matter and have scheduled a site visit for the last week of November.


C. Joslin

Constantin

Thanks for the reply!

We are all looking forward to hearing both sides of the story.

Constantin

Are the fittings similar?

Different? Can a Propress G fitting be used in a hydronic system?

I wonder because the gas service fittings may have a tighter tolerance re: leakage, but the seal materials may not be compatible with the liquids found in hydronic systems (glycol in particular).

DanHolohan

Thanks for stopping by.

Always good to hear from you.

Luke Lefever_3

I think the only difference between water and gas fittings is the composition of the O ring. The gas fittings (I think) use a higher temperature, yellow O ring that is more resistant to melting in a fire.

To my knowlege, the copper portions of the fitting are identical between the water and gas.

paul zeszotarski

good idea

I have seen this type of product at the trade show but never used it. it saves time in assemly but what i remember costs much more then a normal fitting. if used properly in the install and the heat source is maintained it should last a long time.

H A Evans

leaking press fittings

Would it be possible to see the other fitting leaks and their general relationship to the rest of the system?
I have only seen a few of the leaks being talked about and it looks as if some of the problem could be expansion in different planes then what the original fitting was made. Possible thermal or vibration caused?
I have not used any of press fit systems--but am interested in the technology as well as the pros and cons.

Ken_40

In about three weeks,

the time to address this thread should be forthcoming by the manufacturer; at least that's what the post above implies: "End of November."

Ken_40

In about 2 weeks from now...

We will have the manufacturer's report, as promised!

Unknown

they meant to say Monday

just not which monday ;-)

Mark Wolff_2

OXYGEN

I don't have the complete answer for you, however I can say from experience that 100 PSI air pressure testing of a hydronics system for 24 hours did not show leaks, but glycol at 20 psi did leak. That is why we now exceed the Army Corps of Engineers requirements and add an air and water mix to the sytem and charge it to 150 psi for testing ( copper sweat fittings only), so the idea that glycol and air are the same in their leak finding properties is not valid.

Mark Wolff_2

Cause

The cause of these leaks appears to be installer error (including bad equipment) or improperly mixed glycol. The manufacturer would not be liable in either case (there goes your deep pockets dreams!) but the contractor does need to address this issue adequately and quickly.

Ken_40

Suggesting 100 pounds

of air didn't "read" leakage on a gage is bogus. If you lost 3 ozs. of air you couldn't read the drop in a 100# gage anyhow! If you lost 3 ozs. of 100# compressed air, which is over 7 atmospheres, and converted that to visible, leaking glycol at 20#, the floor would be soaked!

I get your point, but not the impossibility of the example you use a "validation" suggesting 100# of air doesn't leak, yet 20# on glycol will. BOTH will leak if a joint is "bad." You just can't measure 3 ounces of air on a 100# gage. Fact is, you'd likely use a 150# gage to measure 100# of pressure.

Put the air test on for a week! I doubt you could see a one pound drop, which would waste a gallon of glycol using your example.

Leaks are leaks. The rate of leakage is dependent on the integrity of the joint, the material and pressure being contained, and temperature of the components. Having said the obvious, the substance is not the causative factor, the amount escaping is everything - especially with regard to detection!

S Ebels

Mark

Where did you get that info from? Has Viega done a jobsite visit? I'd like to know how in particular the equipment was faulty.

Harold

I would really like to know the answer to that as well. I also take offense at your deep pockets crack and the implication.

I would also be interested in how antifreeze could be mixed so as to cause the problem?

The sense of immediacy in your comment about contractor repairs suggests to me that you have not really absorbed the rest of the thread.

Mark Wolff_2

answer

I should have said (including POTENTIALLY bad equipment) which is still to a large extent the responsiblity of the installer to recognize and correct. Whether it was faulty equipment, faulty materials (factory caused or installer caused) or faulty glycol, my point was that blaming a manufacturer for something that so obviously is a job specific problem is irresponsible and should be unacceptable to us heating professionals. Granted the thread has been led by a homeowner, however the careless comments made by a few "professionals" is disheartening to say the least.

As to Viega, I have no knowledge of whether they did a sight visit. Was their excuse for no warranty valid? No. In fact it seemed quite pathetic. But like I said, the true issue looks to be site specific, which would in most cases rule out negligence or incompetence on Viega's part.

Show me a project with 5-10 leaks in sweat copper and tell me it's all the fault of the fitting maker, or the flux manufacturer, or the solder maker. No, the problem lies in the installers lap. I would have to say the same may hold true in this instance. I don't mean to be rude, however, apprentice or journeyman, that many leaks cannot be passed off on a fitting.

Mark Wolff_2

answer 2

I apologize for the deep pockets statement if it offended you. Over 90% of the people that would come to this site, making such large accusations so specifically as Harold H, Ken and others did, are looking for fodder for the lawsuit they want to file or an excuse to pass the proverbial buck. Apparently this is in the other 10% so if it offended you I am sorry, that was not my intent, I probably should have re-phrased that.

As for the glycol mix issue...

This is an older home that has been renovated so...

A. The system may not have been thoroughly purged of old fluids, thus leaving an acidic mixture of glycol and who knows what to attack the joints in the system.
B. The system may have been correctly purged and by using tri sodium phosphate to clean the system the contractor...
1. left it in too long, causing the breakdown of the seals in the press fittings, or
2. left residual amounts of it in after a fairly thorough flushing, and that MIX of fresh glycol and TSP has begun to attack the fittings, thus causing the breakdown of the seals.

Either way, just looking at the statements made on this thread it appears that a lot of people are using this thread to vent their displeasure with a manufacturer, instead of looking at the amazing odds that one project could be so unlucky as to have, what 5... 10... 20...fittings leaking (The definition of leak aside!) due to a manufacturers defect or negligence.

Harold

Thank you for your response about deep pockets.

A couple of points buried in the thread.

It is a new install using only pex and press fit connections.

Viaga did inspect on site and is returning at the end of the month with more technical people.

After the initial visit they said in writing that the leaks are normal and not covered by warranty. This response caused me to change from press fit to solder for the domestic water system. I am not in a position to experiment. The pros have a lot invested in parts, equipment, and customer satisfaction. They are concerned with impacting their livelyhood. They have a much wider risk/benifit evaluation to make. They need to know the cause. I just need non-ugly joints that cannot let oxygen in on this one system.

I believe everyone, certainly me, are awaiting the results of the next visit.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Had a propres leak today 1 1/2" copper brand new american made tubing and a male adapter leaking at the press joint.

only 10 psi on the system. Re crimped it 4- 5 times---what did I have to loose????? Wouldn't stop dripping. It took 4 hours to get a shot glass full of water. Fitting?? tubing?? machine or jaws?? operator error??

Going to cut it apart and look at it.

ED

Constantin

I wonder...

Has anyone tried using a dye + water to pressure test systems? We used dye to great effect in a hydraulic system I worked on, it really helps with finding leaks.

Pressure-testing a system with water at 100 psi and a soluable dye would expose weeping joints pretty effectively I would think. Even if the water evaporates, the dye remains behind to show problem joints before the sheet rock goes up. Just run your finger around a joint and see if it changes color!