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Press Fittings

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Comments

  • mp1969
    mp1969 Member Posts: 226
    Viton or Teflon

    Bob,

    I discussed this problem with a chemist today and he suggested the very same material as you "Viton".Without consulting his resources he also felt "Teflon" would work.

    EDPM O rings have a tendency to bubble in a glycol environment causing an inconsistant seal that will result in seepage or eventually leaks.

    The glycol seems to be the culprit if the wrong sealing material is used.

    MP 1969
  • Dirty Hands Dale
    Dirty Hands Dale Member Posts: 15
    propress

    I am an apprentice, of 2 years, weeks away from finishing my schooling hours.

    I never have had to solder joints on a regular baisis.
    I have used propress exclusively, and the only fittings that I have seen cause trouble were operator error. Other than one fitting I cut in half myself, the fitting was in all the way and the gasket looked good, but weeped and would not recrimp.

    But I have been to jobs with PP that are atleast 5 years old and the have NO indication of leaks.

    I have used glycol in PP systems for heat, winterizing and sno-melt systems, and never saw residue left behind, but I will be on the look out for those leaks.

    I think the PP is good stuff, there is a reason that the whole system failed.

    On a side note has anyone seen the Rothenberger press/crimp tool yet? I got to use it for a couple of days. Its 12 volt and has a 9 sec crimp cycle, as well as shaped somewhat odd. The tool looks more like a REMS gun than PP gun, it also has four rubber pads for triggers. It uses the same jaws and fittings as the PP. I din't really care for it.
  • Contractor
    Contractor Member Posts: 41
    Rothenberger (spelling?)

    Dale,

    I actually saw that the other day, weighs alot less than the propress tool, but i wondered how many presses a gun that size can make before you have to change the battery (because it said it was cordless) and also how durable is it (what kind of warranty is with the tool). Because i do like that the preopress tool is made by a comapny that has a good reputation and offers a limited lifetime warranty on it.
  • Murph'_5
    Murph'_5 Member Posts: 349
    K K K Ken

    I have gauges to measure air loss at 100#s, and would definatly show you a three oz. loss, actually shows through volume rather than pressure drop. Required to test gas lines.

    Murph'

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  • Anna Conda
    Anna Conda Member Posts: 122


    The problem doesn't seem to be occuring with water systems so much as with glycol systems, glycol having a lower surface tension than water and leaks in places where water wouldn't. The biggest issue of concern is the company stating that this kind of seepage is normal and acceptable.
  • Perry_2
    Perry_2 Member Posts: 381
    I think a more fundamental question is the durability of 0-rings

    I live in a house that is well over 50 years old - and the original solder joints have no issues.

    I know of older houses with soldered copper tubing with no problems.

    I have spent almost all of my adult life working in industrial plants (usually power plants) were O-rings are used for a lot of stuff... (and some of those plants had equipment in it that was 100 years old - and still in service).

    I can't think of a single application where we have old (30+ year) O-rings or other similar seals installed that is stil genearlly holding (we may accept leakage in some systems). I specifically note that this is not just because all the old O-rings were EPDM or some of the other older forms of rubber compounds. In many systems the O-rings and seals were of better materials because the durability of the lessor materials was well known even back then (and in some cases special material O-rings were needed due to non-flamible hydralic oils, etc).

    So, lets assume that propress and similar fittings do in fact hold initially. What is a homeowner or commercial building owner going to do 20, 30, 40, 80 years from now.... when the O-rings start to leak.

    Who is responsible then...

    Perry
  • Timco
    Timco Member Posts: 3,040
    200!!

    Sorry...just wanted to be # 200!

    Tim
    Just a guy running some pipes.
  • Cosmo_2
    Cosmo_2 Member Posts: 43
    ha ha

    you brat
    Cosmo
  • Perry_2
    Perry_2 Member Posts: 381
    To clarify

    In industrial plant equipement O-rings are a easily replacable item; although in some cases we toss a smaller item (say a solenoid valve) and just replace the whole component.

    The O-ring in the propress fittings are not designed to be replaced. Unless the fitting is in the basement or boiler room - a wall or floor would also have to be cut into to fix a leak (not to mention what may have been damaged by the leak). Replacing fittings will not be an easy or cheap thing to do (like replacing a solenoid valve often is).

    So, who's going to be responsible for this... I'll bet the propress warranty does not cover this. Is the installing vendor. Heck, is any of them going to even exist then.

    Fundamentally - why use a temporary - unrepairable joint design in an application that is normally expected to last 50, 75, and even 100 years (and O-rings are not expected to last for these amounts of time in any industrial application that I know of - many of which are just as mild - or milder than hot water).

    Perry
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    The promised \"by the end of this month...\"

    has come...

    And gone.

    Still no response. I fear the worst and yet hope for the best, but the evidence and commitments seem woefully lacking.

    Does anyone know what's going on?
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    I took a call just yesterday from Viega

    It felt like a survey, them asking "do I specify Viega Pro-Press fittings?"

    I answered, "Not any more, not until you get this glycol leaking business resolved."

    I went on to explain my bona fides and Wall participation (he already knew, God Bless Him :), plus that we have a project in the field making use of this type of system which will is operating on water now but will be filled with glycol eventually.

    He took my volunteered e-mail address, thanked me for my time and ended the call.

    If I hear back I will post it.

    Brad
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    the big mistery???

    i don;t really get it?

    why not just take a sample of the systems fluid, put in it a pan with a pro press o-ring and see what happens?

    for that matter take several different type of heat system gycols and see wht happeneds?
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Give them the benefit of the doubt...

    ... they have called Brad, presumably, they have called others as well. IMO, that means that they are aware of the problem, have assigned resources to hunt down the cause, and are working towards avoiding more "leakers".

    Presumably, they have testing underway. Having worked with external testing labs myself, I can assure you that just getting the contract hammered out can take a month. Never mind getting a slot in the testing cycle, etc.
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    remember the shuttle accident,

    Richard Feynman took a simple styrofoam cup, put in ice water and an o-ring from the shuttle engine, it was then apparent to him why the shuttle exploded, no fancy lab needed..... :)

    sometimes a little common sense and a simple idea goes a long way.
  • Steverino
    Steverino Member Posts: 140


    Four people from VIaga did indeed visit the site to examine the system. Took a lot of pictures.

    They flew in to one of the worst bouts of weather the Pacific NW has had in a while. Snow, 50+ mph wind, ice, sleet, temps in the teens.

    There was really nothing they could say at that time.
  • Brad White_152
    Brad White_152 Member Posts: 23
    Maybe their jaws were frozen? :)

    Hang in there, Harold.
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    what can be said?

    they need to take apart a couple of joints to 'see' whats going wrong.

    1.) chemical attack on o-ring or copper(not likely)
    2.) inner pipe colapsing
    3.) outer pipe over crimped/out of alignment
    4.) wrong o-ring size

    not much more i see could be wrong?
  • propress

    What's the latest?
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    I heard from Harold,

    The customer who began this thread; a few days ago. I asked what he heard and he said, "Nothing."

    Given the promise from PP/Viega to respond in 30 days, and given the time now passed, Harold stated he would follow up this week and tell us what he can.

    The deafening silence means a few things. Among them:

    1. If they had an answer that was not damning, they would have responded before this.

    2. Their commitment to respond in a timely fashion can only be deemed a failure, regardless of the final "report."

    3. They have made a decision to stonewall the issue, assuming it will go away if they remain silent long enough, and probably incorretly assumed The Wall was unworthy of a response, nor important enough to be concerned.

    4. The ASHRAE chapter I belong to has been notified of the potential problems and many of the engineers have stopped specifying the fittings - until resolved.

    5. We have refused work specifying the material and getting alternate methods approved. Not necessarily because the component has a demonstrated failure, but because of the silence of the manufacturer(s).

    6. The lack and/or outrageous cost of "reducing"-fittings has forced re-consideration of the fittings/"system" alleged savings.

    Harold states his wife is concerned and has reminded him to approach PP/Viega once again. Harold suggested right after the holidays he would. President Ford's burial and yesterday's national observance may have given him one more day of pause. Based on his e-mail to me, this week will be the time he asks yet again for a formal response.

    I'm sure he will share this news with us as soon as he gets it.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,540
    If Viega

    had the chance to handle this situation again,how much easier would it have been to just eat the parts and labor on the leakers?

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  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
    Largest thread on wall............

    Wow!!!

    Yikes!!

    This thread is a scary one. I read through it. From what I gathered this is my view.

    Sometimes when using Propress with antifreeze a green residue is left around the fittings. So far noone has discovered any leakage or signs of a liquid coming from the joints, just the green residue left over. People have had this green residue for years on there pipes. So far none of the joints have gotten worse or shown any signs of liquid comming from the joints.

    Guys,

    I don't think Viega can do anything about it. It is up to the lawyers now. To many projects have this same green residue. If they replace the fittings in one job then they are forced to replace the fittings in all of the jobs.

    This is a huge can of worms.

    The big question I have is any of these joints going to get worse and actually leak a liquid? I think some of this depends on how well maintaned the acidity is in the anti freeze solution. If the anti freeze is acidic it will eat and leak through anything, including the pipe itself. I don't think you could blame Viega for that. Is it going to leak in a well maintaned system? Only time will tell. So far none have leaked yet or we would have heard about it in this thread.

    Right now what I need is some proof that this seepage won't get worse. At least some positive reassurence.

    I have been using ProPress for a couple of years now. I like it alot. We have no green fittings and no leakage any where. I definately will not use ProPress on anti freeze systems until I get some positive reassurence that I believe. I might continue to use it on regular water systems. Again I have heard of no problems with regular water systems. As always I will first inform my clients of the seepage and let them make the decision for themselves. I never beleive in hiding anything.

    JR

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  • Steverino
    Steverino Member Posts: 140
    VIaga Answers

    Short answer - they are not leaks.
  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    Do you have pictures of the other areas of concerns?

    It would help us if we could see pictures of the other areas that you are concerned about.


    While it is somewhat obvious from the pictures that there seem to be leaks on or adjacent to the treaded fittings - it is not so obvious that they are not from thread leakage (at least to me).

    If you could post other pictures of other areas then we could judge for ourselves.

    Afterall, it does depend on what the meaning of "is" is.

    Perry
  • Singh_3
    Singh_3 Member Posts: 58
    More ?? to short answer.

    I would not mind hearing the long answer.
    Such as, the glycol "leaks" on the other fittings posted,
    and Viega's official response to those.

    Thanks for posting the letter.
  • S Davis
    S Davis Member Posts: 491
    Fitting pictures

    Here you are.




    S Davis
  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
    Harold

    The main question is of course, are you satisfied with the answer(s) you received from Viega. Do you consider the situation to be resolved?
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
    Wait a minute

    All they are willing to admit is there are leaks at the treaded fittings? That does not even address the problems.

    I see something completely different in Stacy's photos. I guess Viega's official position is as Harold says...they are not leaking. I was hoping for a slightly more technical answer.

  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    How about a test now?

    since everyone has came and gone, looking at the fititng, why not clean up all the areas and see if "these" leaks "re-appear"?

    off hand, the pictures don't really show what I would consider as an "on going" leak, all spots look dry.
  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    Thanks

    It is my opinion that those pictures show leaks from the press fittings.

    Now lets look at Viaga's response and actions: They can now tell people that they did indeed find some leaks, and offered to pay for the cost of repairing them.

    The fact that they did not address the issue at all will not be apparent to anyone who ask.

    So, apparently Viaga does not believe that a leak is a leak. It all depends on the definintion of leak, now doesn't it.

    It has been a long time since I have read the entire thread - and I don't have much time this afternoon.

    Is Harold considering legal action? I belive that should these pictures be presented in a court of law to expert witnesses who normally deal with code related inspections - that the court could make an adequate ruling on if the fittings leak and if Viaga has some responsibility.

    Perry
  • S Davis
    S Davis Member Posts: 491
    More pictures

    And some more, these non leaks have gotten worse since these pictures were taken, some of these pictures are from another job that is having the same issue, there are at least three jobs at this point and I am setting up inspections with past customers to check their systems as well. sorry about the picture quality on some of these.


    S Davis
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
    glycol

    I see where Steve asked above, but this thread is so long it is hard to find the answer. What brand of glycol is in these systems? Are they the same?
  • S Davis
    S Davis Member Posts: 491


    Andrew,

    They have Cryotek 100AL and non AL in them depending on what boiler was used.


    S Davis
  • Matt Undy
    Matt Undy Member Posts: 256


    Perhaps this has to do with the reduction of lead in brass. Brass has or used to have some lead added to it to act as a lubricant in machining. Without the lead, the finish will be rougher, especially in a plant that isn't so closely maintained, such as in china or mexico.

    Were brass-brass or brass-steel or brass-copper always rather leak prone, or is this a recent problem.

    BTW, i'd be concerned about "normal seepage" causing corrosion under the seal and making an increasingly larger leak. In case someone hasn't mentioned it yet..havent' made it through the whole thread yet.

    Matt
  • Steverino
    Steverino Member Posts: 140


    Of course I am not. After months of discussions, rejections, inspections, unanswered phone calls, and rejections this is not at all either reasonable or acceptable. I feel insulted by the lack of promptness, the "explanations" I have received, and the offer.

    In point-of-fact, I talked with Stacey this morning and some of the "leaks" Viega showed are actually just dripping from somewhere else. There were issues with the threaded connections. I have been told that they are caused by poor tolerences on the threads. These leaks have been fixed some time ago.

    While the inspection was going on Viega verbally apprised me, as I recollect, of the fact that everyone in the industry knows that this happens and it is expected. They also defined a leak as creating a puddle. I responded that most people would consider it a leak if what was supposed to be inside was found outside.

    I am not sure what I will do next. I really do not feel comfortable with these fittings in my system. Certainly complaints with the FTC and consumer protection agencies seem reasonable. Possibly the agencies that certify these products as being acceptable to meet code and other regulations. It would be interesting to see what assorted agencies define as a leak.

    An ongoing concern to me is the possibility of oxygen entering the system through the fittings. I was told during the examination visit that this was not an issue. It was also noted that the antifreeze was a smaller molecule so even though glycol leaked out, oxygen infiltration would not be a problem. I chose not to argue the issue of molecular size versus surface tension at the time because other erronious statements about oxygen penetration had already been discussed. This (CH3CHOHCH2OH) is propylene glycol. You will note that there are more oxygen atoms in there than in plain O2. Plus a bunch of other stuff. Chemistry is a harsh mistress and molecular size adheres to some fairly rigid properties of atomic and sub-atomic interaction. Short analysis; a whole bunch of atoms makes a bigger clump than a few.

  • Tom R.
    Tom R. Member Posts: 139
    I....

    for one have seen enough pictures and heard enough "explanations" to decide to stay away from press fittings altogether. We began with photos of press fittings leaking, and after pressure from the Wall more than 3 months later the manufacturer finally agrees to replace some THREADED connections? Sounds like a weak defense of a bad idea. So as to be able to say they addressed a complaint without setting precedent in admitting their "system" doesn't work. If the leaks are due to glycol (straight or dilute), why don't they say this in their literature? Who installs radiant in a slab without it? And how many heating (and cooling) systems have glycol with sweat fittings that don't leak? The only "green stuff" I ever saw with glycol was at packing glands that needed tightening.....or a leak.
  • In fairness to Viega...

    and this is not to say they did the right thing in this particular case, but I have thousands of joints done with the same system and the same fluids and have not seen any issues.

    Question for Stacy, how does your company handle its copper tube? Is it put into the top steel racks of vans and or pick up trucks?

    Can it be dragged off the racks thereby making miniature grooves in the surface of the copper?

    Are ou polishing the pipe ends prior to assembly (Rigid Pipe Prep tool)?

    What kind of indellible makers mark is on the copper tube?Surface etching or plastic raised letter labeling?

    I suspect there is more to the story than meets the eye. This is not the norm.

    ME
  • S Davis
    S Davis Member Posts: 491
    Copper Tube

    Mark,

    All our pipe is transported in ABS tubes mounted on our trucks, yes we prep the copper and do look out for the tags and bad spots in the copper pipe, another point is there are Viega street fittings into regular Viega fittings that are leaking as well so that kind of rules out the copper pipe.

    EDIT

    I understand that there are alot of people out in heating land that have had no problems with Viega fittings, and I would like to say that if I thought this was an installation issue I would be the first person to step forward and take responsibility as I believe my customers deserve no less, and I am sure if Viega could pin this issue on my company they would have.
    So with that being said could there have been a bad batch of O-rings? it could happen.
    My problem is with the way Viega has side steped the issue by offering to fix four fittings that were fixed months ago and are not leaking(on the threads anyway), I just have not cleaned them up yet pending the outcome of their inspection, and with the way they stand behind their product as I had alot of trouble with their threaded fittings and was told they would try and help me out some how with the lost labor, well that has not happened and when I asked about it I was told that because of this issue that was put on hold.
    So if anyone ever does have a problem with Viega fittings I would bet you are not going to get any support from them.

    S Davis
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455


    Mark has an excellant point. We have been propressing for about 5 years witn No Leaks (not even 1) up until about a year ago (see old thread with British Tubing).

    We heve had a few leaks this year. The ones I have cut apart showed scratches in the tubing from being dragged across the floor-off the truck etc.

    This is more prevaliant in the larger sizes of tubing (because it's heavy) I think cleaning and inspecting the tubing is in order and to discard or return to the supply house any damaged tubing.(easier said than done)

    This is not to let Viega off the hook. We need a better responce.

    Why didn't we have any leaks for 5 years--just lucky?? We are a 9 man shop with 4 propress machines.


    Ed
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455


    Good point Stacey,


    That says it all.

    ED
This discussion has been closed.