Press Fittings

S Ebels

Hey Dan

Do you have any way to tabulate how many hits or views this particular thread has seen? .......Be mighty interesting to know.

Harold

legal stuff

I agree that the weasel is likely to have included many words.

I am not a lawyer, but I believe there is a concept in law about fitness of merchantability. I believe that generally means the product must perform the basic function for which it is sold. Otherwise it is fraud. This system is sold to contain water; it demonstrably doesn't. I believe this would trump warranty details.

DanHolohan

Well,

I sent an eBlast to our subscribers on 10/15, giving them a heads-up about this thread, and so far, 2,652 of those subscribers have read what you've all be saying.

I have no way of knowing how many random people clicked on this particular thread while visiting the site, but I do know that since the thread appeared on 10/11, 46,791 people have been reading the Wall.

Harold

Manufacturer response

The last I have heard is that they want me to cut out a few connectors from my heating system and send it to them.

Does the phrase "no way in hell" seem about right?

They have also excluded me from the loop. This is my system. It belongs to neither the contractor nor vendor.

Leo G_99

regarding saving of labour

I take it that this system saves labour time as some have said in this thread. Today, as I was design/building the latest install, I got to wonder about this comment. I really paid attenion to what I was doing and what amount of time certain tasks seemed to take. It appeared to me, that the way I install these days, the actual "joining" of the tubing is one of the least consuming tasks. I tend to spend much more time measuring, leveling, measuring again, cutting, cleaning, reaming, cleaning again, again measuring, installing the uni strut, tightening, etc. After I have a goodly portion of tubing attached to the wall, I then pull out the turbo and solder. Different sizes of tubing all at once (no need to change heads!)!

I can really understand the look of this system, for this is what temps me from time to time to purchase this system. But really, how much labour time does "pressing" really save over soldering? In my experience today, the actual joining of the tubing was about 5% of the consumed time. And if I botch a solder, I can always re-heat and have a chance to fix. I take it that with pressing, if you botch a joint, say have an elbow not quite square, you cut and chuck?

Leo G

Floyd

AS I said before....

If I were you I would get some concrete answers FIRST.... then make the judgement call as to whether or not you really wanted to make a big public to do about this. I would think that this co. when have legal recourse if it is found that they are not responsible and that maybe someone else was, you have already tried and hanged them!!!! where is the part of innocent until PROVEN guilty at here????
Sorry, but I smell a skunk in the wood pile here... not sure what it is, but I'm not sure that the dog is barking up the right tree....
just my opinion, but that is my right also...it could take a while to get the facts, but until then it seems it would be wise to watch where the fingers are pointing, much unintended and undeserved, harm can be done. If propress is ultimately found to be at fault here, then throw stones....

Floyd

Weezbo

Harold, i am listening and you are comming in quite clear...

i am a bit further back in the room than the Viega tech reps however i distinctly heard you say you have been maintaining a certain level of craftsmanship and quality in your choice of materials within your home.

That should be sufficient information from which to draw the conclusion that you have considered the information that you were handed to be in keeping with that general idea.The fact that indeed there seems to be some degree of discrepancy as to what you first had in mind and what you got should suggest to them that some ways and means to remedy these minor technicalities should be forthcoming.

It doesn't particularly sound like that is the current sentiment however, so, feel free to clarify to your hearts content. what you have said so far doesn't come off as Swahili to me. and i dont think you are comming off as a King Sniveler either.

Harold

I rather question the labor savings also

Since I have been sensitized to the issue I spent some time watching the plumber install my water infrastructure this week. It is moderatly complicated. Lots of pipes, valves, connections. I am sure you all have experience with what I am about to say, and have your own conclusions. It would be interesting to hear what you have to say.

If it turns out that ProPress actually requires the same materials prep as soldering (rather than what their instructions say), I really can not see any appreciable difference in labor. Deburring should be done in either case in my mind. With a large propane torch it was bang. bang, done. Once the general area was hot there was very little time spent for each successive joint. Maybe a bit more time for a single joint. I have also watched the ProPress process. I have soldered pipe off and on over the years as an amateur and this was my feeling for this before watching.

With no prep I can see some time advantage, but not huge. Most time seemed to be spent in making sure the pieces were the right size, things were aligned, and making sure the finished assembly would be professional.

One advantage of solder would seem to be the ease of seeing which joints were done at a glance.

When I discussed ProPress with the president of the plumbing company he felt that there was not a huge cost difference between the solder and crimping. The higher cost of parts mostly negated the labor. I can't tell myself. No data.

Just my take. I am not a pro at this stuff.

I am not part of some nefarious plot. I do not wear tinfoil on my head (a little wool from time to time). I just want a functional, attractive, non-leaking heating system that I feel I can comfortablly depend upon for the rest of my life (probably noteably shorter that the manufacturers warranty, even without the aggrevation).

ScottMP

Harold

If the joints are leaking your going to replace them anyway .. Correct ?

Why not allow one of them to sent back for testing. I don't under stand this logic. Your upset about the quality but refuse to allow the manufacture to try and find out what went wrong ??

Scott

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jim lockard

agree

You can not fix the problem, if you can't see or understand the problem. Send them back Harold you will be helping everyone including yourself. J.Lockard

Brad White_135

Warranty of Merchantability

Exactly, Harold.

When all else comes to rest, that it the most universally accepted principle. When this goes forward, the photos, the warranty denial, the installation instructions, the "a little is ok" and then, oh, yeah, Warranty of Merchantability, seems, well, airtight? Tighter than the fittings at least, FWIW.

You sound entirely reasonable and understanding as a homeowner, you appreciate good craftsmanship and are focussed very reasonably on the problem.

heatboy

So now that 2,652........

.....have read about ONE incident, I wonder how many potential customers (lost) will not allow me to use press fittings?

DanHolohan

Who can tell?

S Davis

hb,


But you must also believe that if other people have had this same problem (and I can't believe I am the only one) after getting the warrenty denial they would give up or maybe not know of the power of the wall in getting the word out to people and putting presure on the manufacturer to solve the problem.
If it was on one of your installs I think you might feel differently, It could be someone had a bad day on the assembly line and this is an isolated incident, it might not, but we will never know unless we get the manufacturer to find out.
My major problem with this whole thing is the responce I received from them, everyone has problems from time to time and what differentiates the amaterurs from the pro's is how we deal with them to solve the problem.
I want to find out what the issue is, was it something I did, was it the fitting was it the pipe, at this point I don't know, I did follow the instructions so if it is in some way my process of assembly maybe they need to be rewritten, my ultimate goal is to make sure nobody else ends up in the possition I find myself at this time, and get this solved for my customer.
I like to think of myself as a professional and as such think it is my responcibility to do this.JMHO



S Davis

Ken_40

Say What?

Lets see...

Harold buys a product that has failed in service. Documentation of the failure is provided, by way of a digital photograph. The photogaph shows the fitting has stains on the tube-to-fitting joint. Not one observer has suggested the fitting is NOT leaking.

One or two have suggested "trace weeping" is "acceptable."

Harold's system has been in service for a year and shows evidence the problem is more than just one or two fittings.

At that time of year when the heating system is desireable, if not essential (perhaps for D/H/W and/or cool climate) Scott and Jim think Harold should:

1. Drain his heating system.

2. Cut out a small section of fitting and pipe to allow the defective component to be analyzed by the fitting maker and/or tool maker whose product was used to "press" the fitting when installed.

3. After an unknown period of time (days, weeks?), Harold will be informed as to whether or not the fitting, tool used to press it, the installer, or the tube itself is the culprit. This assumes the installer, tool or fitting even agree the weep even is a "leak" as defined by them.

4. Harold, not knowing how this will ultimately all pan out, must then install replacement fittings, test that one for leaks, refill the system. Bleed it. And sit back and wait for a call from someone who may or may not ever arrive at any conclusion.

5. Then, we expect Harold to foot the bill for the time, labor and parts involved, out of his own pocket?

Here's what I think should happen:

A. The manufacturer of the fittings and/or machine used to press it (probably one in the same) should have someone stop by Harold's, examine the entire system, take digital photos, take a system water sample, make an educated guess as to what's going on and report back to someone in authority.

B. Should further evaluation be required, the expense of such work should be born contractually by either party. Once culpability as to fault or defect is determined, that party should should be liable for any testing, dismantling, and all labor and materials required for testing purposes.

C. Since the manufacturer has requested a sample. The means, manner and labor associated with providing a sample, should be directed and borne by the requester, not the system owner.

D. The possibility of the manufacturer wanting more, less, or different sampling, testing or evaluations could be iminimal, or very extensive; therefore, the entire invetigative process should be controlled by the primary responsible party; that being the manufacturer. The level and intensity of determining the actual problem could be costly. The homeowner should not be expected to pay for the testing of a manufactuer's product, nor the effort necessary to make that happen.

E. The homeowner should be aware that specific problems outside the control of the manufacturer and/or installer, or with respect to the written warranty and claims and laws of the state the in which he resides, could make him responsible for all costs and expenses as described in every process to determine the cause and fault, if any can be ascribed - and premit the manufacturer to recover any and all costs associated with all labor and services required, other than an initial cursory evalulation, which may already have been met by virtue of photos, written documentation, etc - should they and/or the installer be found not at fault.

D Murphy

good point, however...

You brought up a good point! True you may lose the opportunity to use Pro-Press fittings in the future, as a homeowner may be aware of these problems. However an "informed" homeowner will also know that this alternate system leaks and will require you to use the standard method of piping (i.e solder). I can understand where your coming from yet as a homeowner I would want the installing contractor to use a system that works! Hopefully in your proposal you give an alternate (reduced) price to use "pressed" fittings on their projects. That would seem fair to the homeowner, don't you think?
I can see the responses already on the Wall hehe. "Should I give alternate pricing for everything I install, boilers, pumps..etc..."
In my opinion, Yes....
This will allow the homeowner to really see the differences in price of these systems. This has been said here before many times, informed homeowners are the best customers...

heatboy

Time Is Money.

While the cost of the press fittings is higher, the labor cost at $100.00 per hour to clean, flux, solder and clean up is substantially more. I see no sense in going backwards. If I have faith in what it is I'm doing, you should also.

BTW, It would be fair to me to be compensated for all of my time involved in designing and bidding, don't you think?

Harold

Thanks Ken

Very nice response. Pretty much what I summed up in "no way in hell". Also note that there was a Viega rep out at the house to inspect the joints. He is the one that called me after a couple of weeks.

Stacey has gone through the process established by Viega to fix such a problem. That was why the rep showed up.

I am in a position where I really can not view this as an abstract industry problem. I got it - I don't want it.

So far I interpret Viega's responses to mean they know about the issue and consider it normal. They have aparantly failed to disclose this feature to purchasers so that they may decide on an individual basis if the product is suitable for the purchaser's intended use. I am a little confused, given Viega's responses, why they need the connectors. I am willing to cooperate as much as possible if it will help in general, but this is not a lab; it is my house and I am trying real hard to get an occupancy permit.

The heating system functions; and I need that for occupancy. As Ken so nicely put it, it will cost time and money to drain a section, cut, patch, refill with glycol, remove air.

The resulting patchwork will look even worse than the leaking joints. The system also has fairly little excess copper runs where extra connections can be sweated in. The room turned out to be a bit tight on space. Some joints are easy; some not. As my contractor mentioned somehwere in this thread, the also seems to be an issue with the threaded adapters. That one is a direct problem because it is causing a little puddle of glycol on top of the boiler. I believe Viega views that one as user error rather than an issue of thread tolerences. My contractor can expand on that topic if he wishes.

DanHolohan

Yesterday,

6,257 people visited this site.

ALH_4

$

There could easily be a simple explanation for what has happened in the instances mentioned above. However, as a contractor, are you not disturbed by the manufacturer's response or lack thereof? As with any product you recommend and install, do you not hope that the manufacturer will back you up if something goes wrong, particularly with something as critical as fittings? If a zone valve is inferior, it can be replaced with an improved model. Fittings, on the other hand, cannot easily be replaced in many instances, and the sheer number of fittings in a heating system would make that a daunting and extremely expensive task.

I would like to see some engineering data and testing that verifies the theoretical leak proof connection. In my opinion, the burden of proof is Viega's.

-Andrew

Unknown

REFUSED JOBS?

Probably as many as ran away from brass faucets when, besides web sites, it hit national news that the lead was leeching from these faucets and was causing a HUGE danger to all people of the world.

I think if you added the number that ran away from brass faucets you would find it was limited to a handful of tree huggers in California.

BTW - the sky is falling too. OOPS, that's just rain.

skw

D Murphy

I agree....you should be compensated for all your time in designing and bidding. I've been visiting this wall for several years and this is a war cry of a lot of contractors that post here. That wasn't what I was talking about though. (showing tone and inflection in speaking is very difficult in the "typed" word. I don't want to come across as negative towards contractors) I am troubled with your statement about having faith. Faith has several definitions:
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing.
2. belief that is not based on proof.
In your ability I have faith however there is proof in front of you that proves this system leaks therefore i have no faith in the "pro-press" system.

This is all predicated on Viega coming forth and investigating this "leaking" issue. Hey Viega, ignorance is bliss!

D Murphy

..

Bill Pidgeon_2

The Bomb!

The last time I brought this up, there was a defeaning silence, but I'll try one more time. I'll bet glycol molecules are a lot bigger than oxygen molecules.

How many of you really believe a joint that allows slight amounts of glycol to escape, is a joint that will prevent oxygen from migrating into your systems?

I'm a homeowner, so I may not be aware of data that shows that Propress joints prevent oxygen from migrating into the systems. But I raised this issue once before, and no one responded. If the data does not exist, glycol seepage may be the least of your worries regarding these fittings.

Sorry about throwing more fuel on the fire, but the sooner the oxygen issue gets answered, the better for everyone. And, I really do hope there is a good-for-everyone answer.

Bill

Harold

Continued in Press Fittings Part 2 thread

Unknown

BANNED FROM TRHE WALL!

Unknown

as a civilian:,,,,

it's a bit cloudy butt, Viega needs to stand up phere. Where are the Viegans?

My Pressing experience has been a good one. . Note I've been using the REMS pressing tool (Akku-Press) tool as opposed to what Emmerson recomends.

Ken_40

This thread is entirely too important

and has so many unresolved issues; as well as "Part 2" offering somewhat anciliary, yet not "on-point" comments, I'd like to see any manufacturer offer comment, other than, "We are looking at the matter."

Based on the warranty rejection form, the "matter" began almost three months ago!

And yes. It does take a long time to "load" a thread as long as this... and yes; it is a pain: but the magnitude of our industry-wide involvement - and how it is resolved, is far more important than a 20 second load time!

Let's continue to discuss, debate and learn. Hopefully, the manufacturing groups involved will come forth and make sense of it all.

But until they do.....

BUMP!

S Davis

Viega

Ok here is an update I was contacted by Viega late last week, the Rep said this thread had gotten the attention of the Management at Viega and they are now at least saying they want to look into it, so that is a little different from "it is normal", when I recieved the warrenty denial saying it was normal this lead me to believe this was a larger issue than just on my job, I believe if it was an isolated incident it would not be "normal" and they would want to know what caused it, so I have a hard time thinking they do not know what is going on.
I will keep everyone up to date on what happens.




S Davis

Ken_40

Always a good sign

But, now it's THIS week...

BUMP!

Luke Lefever_3

I don't like this public \"outing\".

I belong to another Bulletin Board for Toyota LandCruisers. I've seen a scenario become pretty common there, that seems to be occuring here too.

Goes something like this.

Poster #1: "I agreed to buy an umptefratz from "Bill", I paid him for it, he cashed my check and hasn't sent it. He won't respond to my emails, I lost his phone number, does anyone know how to get ahold of Bill?

Poster #2: "That Bill is a ****, I say we post his home phone number, as well as his work phone number and where his kids go to school"

Poster #3: Yeah, lets do it.

etc. etc. etc.

This goes on until finally Bill posts up that he got laid off or whatever and he's sorry for the trouble and would people stop calling his house at all hours of the day with threatening messages.

The parallels between the above scenario and this thread are bothersome to me. It seems that Harold and his contractor may have a legitimate concern, and that we, are interested third parties. But it lends no clarity to the situation to be lobbing around accusations and threats.

Viega is a large company. They are not immune from making mistakes. I trust that they have their best people trying to figure out what is happening in the mentioned system, but to have people "spouting off" doesn't help.

We bought a ProPress machine last year, we don't use it much, we haven't used it at all with Glycol, we have used it a little with Natural Gas. I will be watching the outcome of this situation because I believe we all will know more, and be better contractors for the knowlege to be gained here.

Bottom like, could we act a little more like adults and not just jump on the "Kill Viega" bandwagon when we don't have many (any) of the facts?

Luke Lefever,
Lefever Plumbing & Heating, Inc.

Mark Hunt

Kill Viega??????


No one said that.

I see no comparison to the analogy you used. "Bill" disappeared. Viega said that the leaks were normal. It's in writing. Go look.

So here is an analogy that more closely represents what is going on here.

Customer Bob buys a system that he believes is the best and hires a contractor that he also believes is the best.

Contractor Ed installs a system that he has experience with and has never had reason to doubt the performance of that system.

All of a sudden, there are "issues". Ed calls the rep, the rep calls the manufacturer. Ed sends pics of the "issues" and the manufacturer says it's no big deal. Happens all the time. It's to be expected.

Well Customer Bob is quite upset. He doesn't want green spots on his copper piping. He wants what he bought, the best. NO LEAKS. Bob's pipes are leaking. Bob doesn't care if they are leaking "a little or a lot", THEY ARE LEAKING. Bob paid EXTRA for NO LEAKS. None. Nada. Sans leaks, even little ones.

Now here is where it gets interesting. Customer Bob would be DOA right now if it wasn't for this forum. If this was YOUR job Luke, you would be left holding the bag if it was your job.

The REAL STORY here is that "Leaks are normal".

Not in my world.

And for those of you that think this should have been kept "off line", I expect to see all of you jumping in when another manufacturer is getting a good beating here.

I have a good memory for these things.

Mark H

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Luke Lefever_3

Mark- I have no problem with your analogy. It may more closely reflect this situation.

My problem is with all the "bandwagon jumpers" (I wish I had a better descriptor for them) that come out and bash whichever company is mentioned.

I'm just saying, be patient. The facts will come out. People will either be satisfied or dissatisfied with the answers. To rant and rave about it now seems foolish.

Respectfully, Luke

Mark Hunt

I know Luke


and I agree.

But in all honesty, without this forum , this thread, what chance would this "issue" have had to be considered?

The issue was considered closed by the manufacturer. They rejected the warranty claim. The manufacturer started this by stating that "leaks are normal with glycol". Well apparantly leaks are NOT normal according to a few that have replied to this thread. So who is wrong here?? The manufacturer that says "leaks are normal", or the other installers that say, "No leaks here"?????

Mark H

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Floyd

Mark,

Your both right.... What you are saying is correct and what Luke is saying is correct also. They are two different issuses!!! Luke is saying exactly what I have been saying, semms some people don't understand that veiwpoint.
Can't wait for the real story to come out. I may be surprised, maybe not....we'll see.
Meanwhile I just pressured up a large header today for three Ultra 310's. Had 1 leak... a 2" M adapter in the bottom of the 3" air eliminator, seems my son don't have enough lead in his butt yet.. :-) Now when I get on there with that 36 incher...
Wish we could all lighten up a bit here and wait for the facts... I've been assured by MY Propress rep. that the facts will be forthcoming... no timetable... sent him the link, the day this thread started. Of course I'm concerned...

Floyd

ALH_4

In this world

Quiet gets you nothing and nowhere. That warranty refusal letter says it all. What recourse does one have once the manufacturer says failure is normal? This thread is a lot easier on everyone than a lawsuit, and may quite possibly be more effective.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I have absolutely nothing against Viega or any other company. I like to feel I judge products on their merit, and not on their color. I certainly have not gotten the feeling that anyone here is out to get the manufacturer. A little explanation of possibilities and the history of failures of this type would go a long way. This cannot be the first time they have seen a failure of this type. if nothing else, maybe a revision to the installation instructions or compatible materials will result.

Mark's right, how else do you get a manufacturer to notice once they have denied your warranty claim?

-Andrew

singh

Valid points

But I have a few questions and observations.

1- Did "Bob" the homeowner pay extra for a propress system?
2- We all seen the same thing happen with standard copper fittings, adapts,
valves with glycol. Has anyone ever contacted Nibco or whomever for warranty claim? No, we say "this is normal"
3-What if Viega agrees to pay for a re-pipe with whatever fittings the contractor and homeowner wants to use (which by the way I think is the only way for them out of this at this point) sometimes you got to know when to fold.We've all been there. They will still sell thousands of fittings after, it is a good system. What if the "new" system with glycol starts to weep, and it will,what then?
4- Was the water tested and ph before glycol added, Did I understand it was AL rated antifreeze.?
5-What ever happen to insulation, would this have been an issue ,if no one saw?

I'm not looking for any one to answer one way or the other, I'm just voicing my thoughts out loud.

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Supply House Rick

Devan

I know you are a ProPress user, have you had any trouble with the system? It was my understanding that the fluid passing through fittings never actually come anywhere close to the O-Ring. Maybe I'm wrong... I agree with everybody who says "one leak is too many"

Thanks,
Rick

singh

Rick

No, no problems yet, other than my own fault. Like not pressing or improper press fo fitting.

Who told you that? The EPDM o-ring and fluid as far as I know is what is doing the sealing. The inner and outer hex crimps are the secondaries and prevent the fitting from turning .

Only one job with AL glycol , never been back yet so I don't know. Most of my stuff has no antifreeze, I stay away if possible, and now more so.

The real question here Rick, is Does this scenario qualify as a leak? You agree this can happen with any fitting ,black, copper , brand and glycol, I know in your 28 years you seen it.

Do you still beleive in Tectite How's that going by the way?

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Tom R.

\"normal\" abnormal conditions

Mark, you are correct. Any leak is unacceptable. We would not agree that glycol leaks (ethylene or propylene) in an automive system were normal. And this in a system that goes from -20* to 210* in minutes, subject to constant vibration and put together with clamps and rubber hose. Even the smell of antifreeze would trigger a trip to the mechanic for investigation. From the American Heritage dictionary - "Leak: to permit the escape, entry or passage of something through a breach or flaw" Or from Dictionary.com: "An unintended hole or crack through which liquid, gas, light, etc. enters or escapes." The words "breach, flaw, unintended" pretty much say it all.