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Spanish power grid

ratio
ratio Member Posts: 3,963
in THE MAIN WALL

Any insights from someone who's guesses are more informed than mine?

Comments

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 2,142
    edited April 28

    Insufficient rotating inertia. Similar to what happened in Australia a few years back. Fluctuations in input frequency from renewables not offset with rotating turbomachinery

    Common cause- too many windmills, not enough turbines.

    You'll see more of this , not less as the percentage of non dispatchable power sources climbs.

    IMHO they should be banned over 20% of input just for grid stability.

    nuclear10.jpg
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    PeteAbburd
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,551

    Usually it is just one component that fails at just the wrong time that causes a cascade. Like in Ohio or NY.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,966

    It was a matter of when, not if — and we'll see the same sort of thing on this side of the pond.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    PeteA
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,551

    Well, there you go. Something about the properties of the transmission line with different parts in different temps. I'm guessing those properties are the impedance.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/apr/28/spain-and-portugal-power-outage-cause-cyber-attack-electricity
    PeteA
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 2,142
    edited 3:01AM
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1853843#Comment_1853843

    Saw that. Sounds like gas as it's hard to believe a 30 +/-degree delta T could cause such a difference in resistance. In any event, none of that would cause a frequency shift. Lack of inertia does. The article said Spain is about 80% non dispatchable/ asynchronous sources.

    Tick, tick, tick.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,551

    if you google it the number of papers about it make it quite clear that it can happen and grid operators really hope it doesn't because there isn't much they can do to prevent it.

    delcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 2,142
    edited 3:19AM
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1853906#Comment_1853906

    BIG turbines. That's why we haven't seen synchronization failures here. With this , that makes 2 strikes against loading the grid with asynchronous sources

    https://www.aer.gov.au/publications/reports/compliance/investigation-report-south-australias-2016-state-wide-blackout

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,551

    no, i'm talking about the issue with harmonics in the transmission line. if the frequency is varying in the transmission line more mass is going to make it harder for the generator to change with it

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 2,142
    edited 4:10AM
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1853911#Comment_1853911

    But how would weather vary the frequency? That's my point. Nothing in the lines can vary frequency -only sources.

    That's why you need a lot of rotating mass. If you have a sudden load change, a low mass source will change frequency quickly and the grid goes down. High inertia can absorb the fast changes without significant frequency shifting. GE, Siemens et.al. don't sell synchronous condensers for grins.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,384

    August 14, 2003, Ohio proved poor load management can cause destabilization of synchronization.

    Since then they have shut down many coal fired plants along the Great Lakes. What's replacing that rotating resource ? Breath easy, it will get better, honest.

    The good thing is when resources trip and go off line, they can be restarted and reconnected. If you burn them up (trying to maintain or quickly correct a bad situation) the restoration time is much greater.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,966

    It will be interesting to see what the engineers come up with as a root cause. My money is going to be on a frequency droop or instability somewhere — why? Who knows at this point. At least that was what was found to be the root cause of the Texas grid blackout a few years back.

    Thing is, if bits of the grid get out of phase — even slightly — with each other, huge currents can flow and things trip. Or if the frequency gets too far out of limits things trip. And then you have dominos…

    The problem with a black start on a grid with a lot of asynchronous power is that you can't start any of that stuff without a power source which is synchronous running and feeding them, since all those gadgets are phase following.

    Completely off grid systems, if they supply AC, will have a crystal controlled inverter. I wonder if the big battery energy storage systems could have that? Hmm… if they were big enough, they might be able to force stabilize things…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    delcrossv

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