Spray foam pipe insulation

delcrossv

Another point being: is it easily removable for repairs?

RTW

OVERVIEW: As to the use of chemical based products just remember: 1) pressure treated wood was exposed as having carcinogens that included "arsenic" that poisoned the ground underneath decks where small children played and became a health issue ( but of course it was reformulated to be safe -haha) 2) urea formaldehyde was ingredient in foam insulation used to insulate homes back in the 70s to tighten them up - guess what, that was exposed to release harmful gas into the home, and 3) don't forget about Teflon coated cookware exposed as leaching harmful chemicals into food, but again that was allegedly reformulated to be safe a few years ago…..

As I said already to OP - spray away! I propose a Holiday Toast " a Votre Sante' "

Regards,

RTW

ethicalpaul

I will add that two-part "ISO-POLY" foams are very dangerous before they are mixed because one of the components, I think it's the "ISO" side, is readily absorbed through any skin contact. You need full-body protection and correct respirator.

IIRC, one contact sensitizes you to it, and if you have any further contacts after that, you are in trouble. And it's no joke.

I worked at a door manufacturer that poured-in-place poly-urethane 2-part foam which I believe is the same formations as these foam packs and if a worker got exposed, he could never work near the foam machine again.

https://www.osha.gov/isocyanates#:~:text=Isocyanates%20include%20compounds%20classified%20as,nose%2C%20throat%2C%20and%20skin.

SlamDunk

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1827880#Comment_1827880

No, that is incorrect. Foam, like steam pipes, have been around forever and maybe a couple people have tried to marry them but it never became the popular thing to do; therefore, it isn't good practice because it isn't practiced.

PC7060

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1827854#Comment_1827854

good to see it has the required fire rating.

TheKaiser

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1827854#Comment_1827854

As a fellow landlord, and user of spray foam, I like your idea. Like you, I don't see how, from an air quality for fire prevention standpoint, foam on the pipes is any worse than foam on any other house surface. FYI to all the fiberglass adherents, who are afraid of foam offgassing, many fiberglass products use phenol formaldehyde as a binding agent to hold the fibers together, so you're not avoiding formaldehyde by going that route. Similarly, a google search for fiberglass insulation air pollution will bring you to a number of websites detailing the concerns about the inhalation risk of friable fibers from the "safe" fiberglass insulation. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather use no foam OR fiberglass but given the options and climate we we have here in the North East, we need to make some compromises.

I used 2 of those Handi Foam kits last year to insulate the masonry foundation walls in a gutted basement apartment that had suffered from chronic high humidity, and high heating bills, with its previous fiberglass batt insulation (which I'm sure wasn't great to begin with, and had been further compromised by waterlogging at slab level and rodent damage/nesting). So far, 18mos in, it's been working great. Personally, I used Roxul mineral wool when re-insulating my attic, where I wanted it to be vapor open, but in the basement apartment setting I wanted the extra vapor retardation of the Handi Foam (which does come with multiple nozzles). Just in case you need to do a small area here or there, there is also a 1-part sort of cheap spray foam product called Kraken Bond, which is kind of halfway between Great Stuff Pro and Handi Foam. Basically, it is a 1-part moisture cured product like Great Stuff Pro, and it comes with a similar gun, but it has fan nozzles that allow you to spray it on a wall like Handi Foam, which Great Stuff will not do. For small areas, and areas where you want to be able to start and stop without a care, it is a decent option, however if you try to apply it too thickly in 1 layer something weird happens to it and all the little cells combine into a big bubble, so in that regard, Handi Foam is the more user friendly product in terms of being very tolerant of a variety of application thicknesses while maintaining optimal R-value.

Derheatmeister

With all due respect.

If everything is formed and you need it service a component it may be very difficult to access it .

If we walked into a mechanical room that was encased with spray foam we would have to charge EXTRA $$ for difficult access

We don't like to insulate our mechanical room for that very reason.

Although energy conservation codes requires insulation the inspectors will allow not insulating the distribution piping if not heat emmiting devices such as Baseboard or rads or not in the mechanical room area.

Have you taken a look at the High temperature type "Amaflex" such as we use for Solar systems?

SlamDunk

if there is a leak, will it show up at the leak's location? Or, would it flow to a pin hole in the foam five feet away?

DCContrarian

What do you think of wrapping the pipes in Saran Wrap or similar before spraying, so if you ever need to get the foam off it will come off easily?

Jamie Hall

I'd like to clarify a couple of my points above. First, I am not opposed to spray foam in general. I have used a good bit of it on various applications where it is appropriate and safe.

Unprotected spray on foam is neither appropriate nor safe in an occupied space. If it can be protected with a fire resistant or retardant barrier, smaller amounts of it may be suitable — if there is no product with a superior fire rating to use, such as fiberglass.

On the other hand, perhaps the concern is misplaced, since the load in most occupied spaces has a good proportion of foamed products all of which produce similarly toxic gasses and a tendency to flashover when exposed to excess heat…

leaking

I talked to the company rep , I don’t have all the answers as it was late Friday but this product seems right if my pipes don’t get hotter than 240. I run 1lb steam and have 4 IR thermometers so I will find the accurate temperature. At 240 it starts to fail. Off gas is 99% done in one hour, cured one hour , can take heat 1 hr . Code 1a building . Code issues ? Encapsulate - paint - cover it , staple-glue. Cost is the big + no fiberglass in your eyes clothes , area are a big plus . You ventilate very well applying - use a few door window fans is my recommendation to bring in new air . Cost is the big + , I don’t have complete numbers as overspray loss has to be determined but I’ve pro sprayed 500 + gallons out of my equipment so I paint . It should cost 50-70% less than fiberglass and not ruin clothes etc . I’m not looking for looks , but I think I will test an area to smooth out . Longevity is a big question. 40 year ago the foam used just oxidized to nothing . Chemistry has advanced . Latex paint used to be crap , now it’s superior . Now cars are waterborne paint , etc etc etc . This company and others have different types of foam I will look into . But so far I think only longevity and pipe temp are an issue. Before I test pipe temp , will 1lb steam raise pipe temp to 240? I could go lower in lb of pressure but not much. Also i would not use it near boiler . I just dont feel comfortable and steam temp drops as it travels . So it may not work anywhere near the boiler . If we stayed stuck with “what works “ we would be living in a cave . You would not be reading this on the device you hold in your hand . I remember watching star Treck years ago wishing someday for a “communicator” well soon or now my new apple will use AI . 🎉🧑🏻‍🎄🎉🥃🥃🥃🍺🍺😀

Waher

All of that will have to be sprayed with an intumescent ignition barrier. Good luck getting the appropriate coverage to achieve that.

Class A fire rating doesn’t mean non-flammable, it just doesn’t produce as much smoke or spread fire as fast as other flammable materials.

SlamDunk

speaking of AI:

IMG_0102.jpeg

RTW

I dont believe foam insulation for steam pipes was ever mentioned in any of Dan Holohan's books or by the Dead Men as an alternative and doubt founding father and innovator, Ben Franklin, would approve - just sayin

Regards.

RTW

PC7060

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1827845#Comment_1827845

While the HandiFoam product is class A (1) rated per E84 it still requires a protective coating; ie cannot be left exposed.
I’ve provided link to the 2024 ESR-2717 E84 report for the HandiFoam product. Please note section 4.3 (excerpt above) requires an approved 15 minute fire barrier (4.3.1) or application of approved coating (see 3.6 above) at specified thickness (4.3.2).

https://cdn-v2.icc-es.org/wp-content/uploads/report-directory/ESR-2717.pdf

You stated this is for a mult-dwelling unit so I caution you to comply fully with the required Thermal barrier for both you and your tenant’s sake. You should also ensure compliance with all requirement imposed by insurance carrier and the local AHJ before proceeding. To do otherwise would be considered gross negligence as you have been made aware of the risks.
Please take this as constructive inputs and I wish you good luck on your project.
Respectfully
PC7060

Edit: 2024-12-21 update with 2024 ESR 2717 report

Jamie Hall

While it's not really worth my time to comment further — @leaking 's mind is well and truly made up — just two thoughts. First, he notes that lighting foam board, particularly isocyanate foam, with a cigarette lighter is difficult. Quite true. So, however, is lighting a southern pine 2 x 4. Once lit, however, they both burn — and the smoke from the foam is lethal, but the pine isn't. For what it's worth.

The other comment is the one where he states that "steam temp drops as it travels". Really?

And thank you, @PC7060 , for the excerpt from the Code.

PC7060

@HeatingHelp.com

Can the Save Comment operation be updated to prevent creation of blank post?

Or I’ll need online remedial fat finger keyboard training. 😎😂😏

HeatingHelp.com

@PC7060 not sure if you mean to delete a comment (blank or otherwise) that has been already posted (only admins can do this), or deleting a draft (which you can do under "My Drafts"). PM me if this isn't what you mean and we can discuss further.

leaking

yes I need more questions answered, but pipe temp today with an IR thermometer was 205 - 207 running to 1.2lb, cycling on off under under pressure for an 1.5 hours at 17f outside . I let the building cool for 2 hours to get a long run cycle and maximum pipe temp . That is well below the 240 foam temp allowed . Yes , ok I cover it for code and fire . That is not a big job . Or expensive . It will go fast with the right fastener and or glue . I hope to talk to the foam rep soon. I wonder how long it will be stable. Fiberglass might be good for hundreds of years , foam is not going to do that . But my life time at 67, the reduced cost , and better R value , having maybe no air leaks. Make it worth researching more. 🎉🤶🏼🎉🥃🥃🍺🍺🍷🍷😀

PC7060

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828474#Comment_1828474

sounds like a plan. Let us know how it works out.
Hope you have a great holiday.