Steam or hot water?
Hi I have a capital red top A9 boiler. It has the pressure gauge with temp on front. There is no water gauge but no visible pump either. I've had 2 estimates to replace it as the gas conversion is no longer reliable. First place said i have a steam boiler and the next one says hot water? It does have a overflow device on the back side?
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I am unable to upload the picture of your boiler but if you visit the post from shardad dated March 2021 titled The Capital Red Top Boiler from 1903 you can tell us if this is also your existing boiler.
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Please post several pictures of your boiler — the front with controls, but several from all sides which show the piping and how it connects to the rest of the heating system. Can you also take one of at least one radiator and post that?
I'm going to bet that you have a gravity hot water system — but until we see the pictures, we really can't say. I will say that if that is what you have, they work splendidly — but you have to have a contractor who really knows what he or she is doing to get them to do so. Where are you located? We may know someone in your area we could recommend.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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We really need pictures, but if it has a temperature/pressure gauge and there’s no sight glass, that sounds like a hot water boiler.
Post a pic or two of one or two of your radiators from far enough back that the entire radiator and its piping can be seen.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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Agreed. If there is no pump, it's circulating the water by gravity. But pics will help.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
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Thanks for your replies! I'm at work but will get some pictures uploaded tonight. I am located in Port Clinton Ohio and yes it provides excellent heat. Trouble I've had is with the gas conversion. It like to pop off and no one wants to work on that. I've been told parts are no longer available. Also mine seems to be wrapped in asbestos. It is not the same as the 1903 post. Mine is smaller.
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@1885_House, If you are having problems loading digital photos into this forum, and you don't have access to a tech-savvy grandson or granddaughter, you need to get to know someone that has something newer that you flip phone to email you pictures of the boiler, then you can copy and paste the pictures from your email to this forum by clicking on then and dragging them over to the text box you are typing the information in. You may also use the Photo Icon at the bottom of the text box you are typing in, and upload the image file that way
There are other ways also but, I find those two the easiest for me.
Hope this helps. And I'm just joking about you having a flip phone. No offense intended 🤣🤣🤣
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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We need to see pictures of your boiler. It can be set up with gravity hot water or steam trim, we need to see what trim is on your installation.
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@Erin Holohan Haskell Hi Erin, another one for the database, if it's not already there.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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Thermocouples and thermopiles wear out over time and produce less current, they need to be replaced every couple decades and are still available. As the current from them drops they either don't reliably open the gas valve or cause the safety to occasionally open depending on the type of system. I'm not suggesting you not replace a 100 year old boiler but the unreliability part could be a simple fix by someone that knows what they are doing.
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My money's on gravity hot water- steam wouldn't have a temperature Guage.
Wow if the contractors can't give you a straight answer on that I'd get a new phone book
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Finding someone that can fix the old boiler might be a good test of who might be able to replace the boiler without making a disaster of it.
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We have it right here. Thanks!
President
HeatingHelp.com1 -
It's gravity HW for sure with no sight glass and with a temperature gauge. The installer that said it was steam….give him the boot.
Reminds me of the time the company I worked for the PM brough the supply house guy up there to size the boiler (mistake). We were set to install it on a Monday. We got finished with the job we were working on Friday a little early, so we swung by the new job to take a look. The old boiler was steam. My apprentice said " I saw the new boiler at the shop I could have sworn it's hot water. it had an aquastat on it" He was right we had to wait for a new boiler
Our PM had pictures of the old boiler and the sight glass was clearly shown. That's why they get paid the big bucks.
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There were 2 postings here a year or 2 ago this time of year from 2 different people that had tried to put a steam boiler on a gravity hot water system.
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Classic hydronic by Dan "Yoda" Holohan
Bad news throwing a circulator willi nilly on an old gem like that. Something about tearing through a cathedral with no time to float up to the ceilings :)
If you say "hydraulic separator " or "buffer tank" to anybody giving you a quote and they have that deer in the headlights look? I would keep looking for someone else.
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my converted gravity had a large B&G circulator pumping into a 40gallon boiler when I bought the house. System would clang and bang at start of every call for heat when the large volume of 180F water was pushed into the pipes and radiators. Rads would heat up fast and kick off the tstat after 10 minutes.
New configuration is powered by a Alpha2 running constant speed low setting moving 8 gallons a minute max. Very quiet with long cycles just like its gravity fed grandfather. 😎0 -
I'm sure the boiler was also cold by the time the cycle ended. A conventional boiler on a converted gravity system needs return water temp protection.
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hot water. does that radiator actually heat with that hack job of a relocation?
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if the baso switch is opening and has to be reset either the thermocouple is wearing out or it isn't in the pilot burner. it looks like the pilot flame is burning pretty well although it wouldn't hurt to clean the pilot burner
also there is more there that is almost certainly asbestos than is not asbestos
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So it is agreed that you have a gravity hot water system. You may have a large savings coming your way with the installation of a new modulating/condensing boiler. That type of boiler can save you over 1/2 of your annual heating energy usage compared to the gravity system you are currently using. A standard cast iron boiler might cut your usage by 30%. Now you need to figure out what your heating energy usage actually is.
If that is the only Gas appliance in the building, then your entire gas bill for the year is your heating cost. However if you have other gas appliances for hot water, cooking, and laundry,
- Then you find your lowest gas bill in May or June. That will be what you use for all the other appliances.
- Then you multiply that number by 12. that is a year of all the other appliances (approximately)
- Then you add up all the gas bills for the year.
- Now take the total annual gas bill and from that subtract the number you calculated for the other appliances annual bill
- What you have left is the heating gas bill. (approximately)
- with that number, multiply it by 10 for 10 years. That is the total you will spend in 10 years if you keep the boiler as is and just get it fixed. You will actually use more due to inflation but lets just keep it simple.
- A new 95+% efficient boiler will cut that total in half
- What is the price of a new 95+% efficient boiler installed? If the job costs less that the 10 year savings, then you should replace the boiler.
Here is an example:
- Your total gas usage for 12 months is $8,752.00
- Your other appliances use about $42.00 per month
- So take $504 from $8752.00 = $8248.00
- Ten years of total gas with your existing boiler is $82,480.00
- The new ModCon boiler is only $20,000.00
- So you will be saving about $41,960.00 in ten years, so the $20,000 new boiler is a GO!
Here is another example:
- Your total gas usage for 12 months is 3,548.00
- Your other appliances use about $42.00 per month
- So take $504 from $3548 to get $3044.00
- Ten year total is $30,440.00
- New ModCon is $20,000.00
- Your savings would be 15,022.00, about $5000,00 less than the new boiler, So maybe not such a good economic deal. But when you count the cost of repairs to that old boiler, It might be OK to spend that money. But you also need to calculate the maintenance cost of the new boiler. They have more maintenance items to consider, so you might need an additional $120.00 per year for that.
Now I'm not quoting actual prices for fuel or service or installing a new boiler. These are all hypothetical numbers for the examples, and do not reflect the actual pricing in your area. You need to do your own calculations with your gas bills and your new equipment estimates. Just remember that the lower cost Cast Iron boilers operate at about 80 to 85% efficiency and will only knock 30% of your fuel usage, while the Higher priced ModCon boilers that operate at 95% and higher efficiency, may knock 45 to 50% off your gas bill.
Hope this math helps you decide. I remember telling my customers that the old heater’s gas or oil bill is paying for the new equipment. You are just not getting the benefits, the energy company stockholders are.
If however, your annual gas bill is only around $2000.00 then it is not economically sound to replace that gravity system. Get a new, more efficient power burner installed in the old beast.
But I would forget about fixing that old gas conversion burner. That one is wasteful.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thank you all for the info/advise! If you know anyone in northern Ohio that is knowledgeable in this system please let me know. Thanks again!
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Unfortunately I think you are too far west for G.W. Gill Plumbing and Heating. They're on the near east side of Cleveland.
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