Roman Aqueduct w/Siphon lock?

RickDelta

Hello HeatingHelp.com community!

I'm pondering if I could move water from one place (my basement) to the other (Delaware Water Canal 330ft away) as the Romans did with just gravity.

Our commercial property has a three tier (levels) basement (2ft offsets)

Our building sits over an underground spring. The water ingress is very dynamic throughout the year. Sometimes our small sump pit (3.5ft diameter x 3ft deep) is bone dry. Other times, think: four 4" pipes pumping full volume into our basement 24/7 for several weeks!!

I currently am re-designing the pumping system as the present eight submersible pumps are very short lived (6 months) from the rapid and constant short cycling within the small sump pit area.

With the recently added water retention surface ponds the township installed surrounding our property on three sides, the underground water ingress has got a lot worse! : (

My first design change was in realizing that the existing small sump pit area was way to small to effectively manage the current high dynamic ingress of water.

To increase the small sump pit storage area, I simply allowed the entire bottom basement tier to flood (see pic below). This now gave me an immediate 1500 gallon extra water storage area to work with. (Tier one resides all the buildings gas fired hot water tanks, tier two resides the large 400amp 3-phase electric service panel)

Think: This now puts all the 240 3-phase pumps ( +3ft down in sump pit bottom) in the middle of a 2ft sea of water! ... Don't ever want to be servicing these pumps standing in 2ft of water!

My plan is to eliminate the submersible pumps and install four high capacity 3" "self-priming" pumps at street level within the building directly over the existing small sump pit well.

Basically,
Suction side pumped up vertical 15ft to pump,
From pump discharge vertical up for 12ft,
Than a horizontal downward gravity flow out 330 ft to canal (via two existing underground 4" PVC pipes)

Sorry for the long prelude to my titled question, but here goes:

The original pump piping discharge to the outside of the building was an immediate open atmospheric drop to an open street storm water drain.

During the recent major street intersection rebuilding project by the township, they allowed me to install two 4" PVC pipes thru an abandoned 3ft storm sewer pipe that crossed under that highway (see pic below) beside us.

This now gave us a direct discharge path to the canal.

Think: This new discharge piping became one "air tight" sealed tube from suction pipe starting point all the way out to the canal! With a water level differential approximately 8ft)

Question is:
Shouldn't I be able to run my new pump for lets say just 60 seconds (just to prime the piping) to create an "Aqueduct" (siphon flow) without the pump running at all?

As the intake siphon water level drops down near "siphon break" ...... my level sensor turns on a solenoid valve to seal off the discharge pipe (keeping the entire discharge pipe full of water). When basement water level rises up again, solenoid valve again allows stored discharge pipes water to create a siphon again.

At times when the ingress of water into basement is greater than the siphons ability to remove it, the pump simply stays on.

...... your thoughts on this?

Thanks!

leonz

I have come back to this on 3/16/24 12:35 PM:

I am adding more material;

You can dewater this basement simply with the right pump and puddle sucker attachment as needed.

The known items are:

1. you have excess water in a flooded basement for most of the year

2. you have an existing usable sump for a drainage pump

3. you have multiple 220 volt electric sump pumps that fail and cannot keep up with water ingress into
the basement and you have been given poor advice

4. you have 480 volt three phase power

5. the existing street drainage gutter is reachable in a straight line in a short distance from the building
with a 2 or three or 4 inch collapsable drainage hose if you need to use it

6. the existing sump pumping system is not working as the lower basement is overcome with
subterranean ingress of water through the cinder block walls of the foundation

7. you have excess humidity that has increased the chance for mold growth in the basement

8. you require continuous dehumidification in the basement.

9. you do not have a water ingress situation requiring a wet well sump pump operating continuously.

10. your 3 phase medium voltage system can operate an electric motor powered single diaphragm gear
powered drainage pump cart on dry ground either manually controlled or by employing a mercury
float switch.

11. one Gorman Rupp 480 volt electric powered diaphragm pump can replace the entire number of
pumps you have in the basement.

On to pumps:

The cart mounted Gorman Rupp electric pumps operate on 110 volt single phase, 220 volt 3 phase and 480 volt three phase electric power with a maximum of 25 foot head.

Now at maximum flow the 4 inch diaphragm pump will pump 130 gallons per minute 7,800 gallons per hour into the drainage gutter, in 24 hours it will pump 187,200 gallons, in 7 days it will pump 1,310,400 gallons.

A dry basement with a dry lower level leaving the water in the existing sump where it belongs without a great deal of work using a mercury tilt switch to control the pump in a very short period of time is what you need and want.

You would have to use a 110 volt mercury tilt switch in the sump pit to control the electric powered diaphragm pump independently without human intervention.

The Herr Pump Company is the closest Gorman Rupp pump dealer to you.

Herr Pump Company
215 Wittmer Road
Lancaster, Pennsylvania
717-393-3694



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No one has helped you with this other than spending money and weakening your basement walls and floor.

An electrical inspector would have a fit if he or she saw this mess.

You are making yourself much more work for yourself that is not necessary.

One of the Gorman Rupp electric powered diaphragm pumps with the reinforced suction line, cam lock fittings, flap check valve and suction strainer will be the least troublesome way to keep the basement dry right down to the actual sump floor.

All you need to do is decide which of the 3 pump size models you want to use and how many of them.

The Herr Pump people can provide you with the reinforced suction hose, the 2 barbed hose to pipe adapters, the flap check valve, pipe nipple and the suction strainer basket for the size of pump you choose.

You need to measure what length of suction line you need from the dry location where you will place the pump cart to the sump bottom and decide where you will locate the discharge hose before pumping in order to reach the street gutter.

The Herr pump people will help you with this and if you offered them lunch I am sure they would come to your building to look at your problem to help you solve it with little fussing and no excavation.


Gorman Rupp has been manufacturing pumps for almost 70 years now so they know what they are doing.


I want you to succeed not fail.

PC7060

Allowing the basement to be flooded for extended period of times is a bad idea all around. The moisture intrusion into the building space will be appalling in addition to making maintenance dangerous.  And I’m sure your insurance company would have serious concerns.  I can’t speak to the siphoning approach you described other than you’d have to maintain full fill of the piping for suction to be maintained ( @Jamie Hall ?).   

I recommend you get a professional engineer involved and design a sump pit with industrial pumps and piping along with proper safety and alert system.  And be sure to pull the permits and get full inspections to stay in good grace of your insurance company. 

Jamie Hall

It will work. It will work far better if you can arrange the discharge so that it is always submerged. You would still need to prime it, however.

Now one minor (?) detail. In some jurisdictions -- Connecticut, for instance, you would have to get a discharge permit to go into the canal, and you will have to test the water quality going into the canal regularly. That is no small matter. It may be just State -- but it may also involve the Corps of Engineers and EPA/

EdTheHeaterMan

Agree with @PC7060. Get an engineer. Tale of the homeowner DIY solution to water in the basement.

We had an event in Cape May County New Jersey that caused a higher than normal water table for an extended period of time. One customer's home had a small pit under his home where the boiler was installed. My guess would be the pit was about 5 feet deep ( the rest of the crawlspace was another 2 feet so I could stand up) and about 4 feet wide by 8 feet long. Just big enough to place the boiler and a set of steps in there. I serviced the oil burner for many years.

During the high water table event that lasted several weeks I happened to be called to do service on the burner. There were 2 pumps constantly operating to keep the water from covering any of the burner or electrical parts of the boiler. My service visit was Three weeks into the high water event. I was shocked to find that the 4' wide pit had grown to well over 8' wide and was exposing the bottom of some poured concrete foundation piers. These two pumps were moving so much water that erosion was removing the ground from under the home and pumping the dirt onto the ground next to the home at an amazing rate.

When the homeowner saw what I found He was also amazed and we came up with a plan to build a shed on the rear of the home to house the boiler. Shed was completed in 3 days and we removed the boiler from the basement and installed it in the new above ground shed. After that, The homeowner was able to fill the crawlspace without the need to have a pit under the home.

I wonder what would have happened to that home if the burner was not scheduled for service?

My point being, removing that quantity of water on a regular basis is going to have some effects on the foundation of that building. Moving that quantity of water from under that building may have some unintended consequences. Have an engineer look at the big picture. Solving one problem may cause an even bigger problem down the road.

Big Ed_4

A neighbor wanted to use his basement in a tide area . He did a wonderful job . But after a storm surge they doors were not closing and cracked wall beads ...

pecmsg

With the recently added water retention surface ponds the township installed surrounding our property on three sides, the underground water ingress has got a lot worse! : (

Have you informed the Town the situation has gotten worse? Id think there responsible!

PC7060

@EdTheHeaterMan - a lot of the beach homes in Cape May NJ, have been lifted in recent year with new foundations so lots more head room!  

EdTheHeaterMan

PC7060 said:

@EdTheHeaterMan - a lot of the beach homes in Cape May NJ, have been lifted in recent year with new foundations so lots more head room!  

The customer I spoke of was the owner of one of the campgrounds that is on the mainland portion of the county. Not on the barrier islands. This particular home would not qualify for the “stilts.” The water table in that area was at least 8 to 10 feet. After Hurricane Sandy there were several more storms that kept the lakes and ponds in the area at a higher than normal level. That was the event I was talking about.

That same event allowed FEMA to provide funds for barrier island homeowners to raise their homes. But only certain isolated circumstances would raise the home high enough to install the mechanicals in that huge 11 foot tall “CrawlSpace”, because most of the equipment would end up below the “New Flood Level”, therefore failing inspection.

Mad Dog_2

Anything can be done: time, money, DEC & DEP approval.  Mad Dog 🐕 

pecmsg

Mad Dog_2 said:

Anything can be done: time, money, DEC & DEP approval.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Who you know!

RickDelta

"@leonz"

You appear to have 9 storm drains in the curbs why not just run a discharge pipe to the gutter from the basement and be done with it?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

They all go directly into the newly built township water retention ponds. The state engineer said we can't discharge into them.
The water was tested and is very good.

leonz

RickDelta said:

"@leonz"

You appear to have 9 storm drains in the curbs why not just run a discharge pipe to the gutter from the basement and be done with it?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

They all go directly into the newly built township water retention ponds. The state engineer said we can't discharge into them.
The water was tested and is very good.

=================================================================

OK if they are that crazy in not letting ground water enter the retention ponds you can connect the 4 inch discharge hose of the diaphragm pump to the pipe you installed to reach the canal.

You would be able to connect the diaphragm pump or pumps to the lines you installed with the correct fittings and get rid of that mess in the basement.

The pressure surge arrestors built into the discharge port of the diaphragm pumps protect the pump and the controls the flow of water discharge creating an even discharge pressure that will flow through the piping.

RickDelta

@leonz
........ I hear ya!

When this building went in 80 some years ago, they knew they were over an underground spring. That small existing sump pit went in during the buildings construction. Eight 4" cast iron pipes feed the under slab drain pipes into this sump pit.

As the township developed, the volume of ground water increased as well.
The capacity of this sump pit is now too small to do a conventional "bang/bang" pump control system (floats on/off).

Excavation of a high capacity sump storage down there is extremely cost prohibited for many reasons.

So, for no cost at all, I simply turned the bottom tier into a massive storage sump.

Where as most sumps are deep compared to its diameter, my storage sump is let say, 50ft x 50ft area ........ but only 24" deep!

I'm using a special shallow depth pressure transducer that will resolve the rising water levels at only 1/4" difference in water level.
Within 1" ...... I can level control all 4 pumps!

Here out of the four pumps, I can bring on one or as many needed pumps at any time to keep the water level within its allowed (bottom tier) containment area.

This is the software I wrote on a PLC controller to do this. I have lead/lag and pump rotation to evenly work all the pumps through the year.

RickDelta

....... my thoughts to all this, why not incorporate (program into the controller) instead of turning on a pump to meet the rising water level, but simply modulate a discharge valve and let a varying siphon drain the water down.

Jamie Hall

Please pay attentiuon to my comment about permits!!!

RickDelta

Jamie Hall said:

Please pay attentiuon to my comment about permits!!!

I hear ya!!

During the re-construction of the major intersection work and installation of the water retention ponds, I met with both the state and local engineers as to our ground water issues.

I'm sure they realized the retention ponds aggravated our water ingress flow and suggested to pipe it directly to the canal.
Just FYI: The new water retention ponds, when they peak their capacity, they dump directly into the canal as well (via a large vertical grated standpipe).

RickDelta

"@Jamie Hall"

Another foot note:
The retention ponds were installed a year before they repaved the main intersection.

During the final blacktop layer, the woman running the large roller noticed that the black top was forming a "wave" in front of her machine!

They had to stop the work and dig up corner to corner of the intersection six feet down and pour a massive footer pad!

I'll bet the the retention ponds had raised up the expected water level more than they had planed.

leonz

Rick, please humor me here and do not spend any money yet.

OK if your lower basement floor and sump hold 450,000 gallons+- you need to move it out of the basement.

The largest 3 inch Gorman Rupp sandpiper air operated double diaphragm pump has the capability to pump 285 gallons per minute, 17,100 gallons per hour, 410,400 gallons per day unattended as long as
you invest in a pulsation damper and suction line basket strainer and you need an air compressor to provide the compressed air to operate it.

The largest air operated sandpiper diaphragm pumps cost half as much as the model D electric powered diaphragm cart mounted diaphragm pump.

The only things needed are an air compressor, small diameter compressed air hose and quick connect fittings, 3 inch suction hose and basket strainer, 3 inch discharge hose, 3 inch flap check valve, 3 inch to 4 inch pipe fittings and pipe dope.

You can use a 3 inch check valve threaded into a 3 inch elbow at the bottom of a vertical riser to meet the 4 inch pipe to pump the water away.


Please humor me and visit the Herr pump people in Lancaster on Monday as your going to waste a great deal money of money if you do what you have described.

A single 3 inch diaphragm pump and air compressor are all you will need and with the money saved you can always have a second diaphragm pump as a spare.

4 electric pumps, pump controls, waterproof wiring pump piping and a spare motor and spare pump parts are going to cost a great deal more money.

The other thing is the sanitation issue as stagnant water will also harbor diseases.

With a puddle sucker for a sandpiper and dehumidifier you will reduce the chance of having mosquitos as well.


Leon

RickDelta

"@leonz"

OK ........ do I understand what your proposing?

Do not flood the bottom tier ..... do all the pumping out of the existing small sump pit?

You do realize this is a noise sensitive environment? (motel) The pumping solution cannot be noisy.

We've had guests check out because we were running our commercial dryer at night one time!

I cant imagine running an air compressor and piston pump 24/7 outside of the guests rooms.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, Just chiming in. Two things bother me about using the basement for water storage. One, already mentioned is the likelihood of undermining the foundation. Another concern is the humidity and what it will do to any wood in the building. If you could keep humidity low, just under the lowest floor joists, it could work. That seems tricky to me. I'd sooner see an exterior perimeter ditch, sloping to a collection point. Maybe the city would help, as it seems to be partially their responsibility. 🤔

Yours, Larry

leonz

Yes, Rick that is what I am saying to you.

It is going to be safer to do and less costly to
do and you can more easily manage the water
ingress once the 3 inch sandpiper pump works
the first day.

I am sending you a PM.

RickDelta

"@Larry Weingarten"

Hi Larry!

Hard to believe I know, but we have absolutely no mold or dampness issues to speak of!
This may be because on that bottom tier, in the corner, there is an open (2' x2') abandoned chimney all the way up thru the buildings roof.
This probably is doing all the water vapor control as a side benefit.
(this tier was the original boiler room)

leonz

RickDelta said:

"@leonz"

OK ........ do I understand what your proposing?

Do not flood the bottom tier ..... do all the pumping out of the existing small sump pit?

You do realize this is a noise sensitive environment? (motel) The pumping solution cannot be noisy.

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The pulsation damper will reduce the noise and vibration and piping the air discharge muffler outside or piped into a 5 gallon bucket of water will also work well.

If needed an air compressor with an insulated enclosure can be placed in a small shed outdoors and the air line and power line for the air compressor could be enclosed in 2 PVC conduits.

Please visit the Herr folks in Lancaster on Monday, they will help you and I will be glad to talk to them as well if needed.

RickDelta

@Larry Weingarten
One, already mentioned is the likelihood of undermining the foundation

Larry, They knew they were building over a spring here for sure. There is NO soil under this building ..... all deep drain stone bed! The water never contains any mud!! The water is always crystal clear.

RickDelta

"@leonz"

Leonz, is this what your talking about??

...... I'll be the only one left in the motel! : (

This noise 24/7 and a large air compressor would not be acceptable.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=oOy35LfFI5c

Larry Weingarten

Hi @RickDelta , You're winning me over. One thing I would do is to install multiple humidity sensors around the building, and keep them in place permanently. I'd put some in the places of concern, but also in locations that should not be affected... and also outside. This will give you useful info on how things are really doing and alert you to take steps if needed. I've done my share of replacing rotted beams with multiple stories above. You don't want to have to do that 😏

Yours, Larry

RickDelta

What would be the expected siphon flow rate in gallons per minute I would get with this setup? (NO pumps running)

Suction side pumped up vertical 15ft to pump,
From pump discharge vertical up for 12ft,
Than a horizontal downward gravity flow out 330 ft to canal (via two existing underground 4" PVC pipes)

(Water level height , basement to canal, differential 12ft)

RickDelta

This idea of incorporating a "siphon assist" into this pump project, came to me with our current pump setup.
I had no visual way of knowing if the pumped water going out the gravity discharge pipes were backing up or not.
So, I drove a drywall screw into this PVC pipe and removed it. Expecting water to be pushed out the hole if it were in fact backing up in the pipe (it wasn't).

At that point I shut down the pumps and to my surprise, the water was still flowing thru the pipe big time!!!! This continued for about 30 minutes.

This is were I knew I've created a siphon flow with no pumps running.

RickDelta

Larry Weingarten said:

Hi @RickDelta , You're winning me over. One thing I would do is to install multiple humidity sensors around the building, and keep them in place permanently. I'd put some in the places of concern, but also in locations that should not be affected... and also outside. This will give you useful info on how things are really doing and alert you to take steps if needed. I've done my share of replacing rotted beams with multiple stories above. You don't want to have to do that 😏

Yours, Larry

...... Understood! luckily the entire building is cinder block walls and reinforced concrete slab sub-floors (basement is 14" concrete poured walls)

Mad Dog_2

What I would do......

Stock it with Trout and eat 😋 them at will. Mad Dog 🐕 

RickDelta

Mad Dog_2 said:

What I would do......

Stock it with Trout and eat 😋 them at will. Mad Dog 🐕 

...... LOL!!!!!!! : )

Was thinking of selling the water for swimming pool fill ups! I've seen water tanker trucks doing that service.

.... or better yet, let'em have the water for free! , just get it out of here!! : )

Jamie Hall

RickDelta said:

What would be the expected siphon flow rate in gallons per minute I would get with this setup? (NO pumps running)

Suction side pumped up vertical 15ft to pump,
From pump discharge vertical up for 12ft,
Than a horizontal downward gravity flow out 330 ft to canal (via two existing underground 4" PVC pipes)

(Water level height , basement to canal, differential 12ft)

You can use the Hazen-Williams equation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazen–Williams_equation to figure that, pretty closely --except that the pump will reduce the flow some when it's not running. The detail that part of the pipe is running at a negative static pressure -- a siphon -- is not relevant, but the length, size, roughness, and total head loss is.

RickDelta

"@JamieHall"

Thanks! ..... yea, I saw the equations of how to solve this, but I'll have to struggle with it for a week or so just to get even a ballpark answer. : (

I was hoping there was a Roman or two out there that could slide me the answer off the top of their head : )

....... Et tu, Brute? : )

leonz

RickDelta said:

"@leonz"

Leonz, is this what your talking about??

...... I'll be the only one left in the motel! : (

This noise 24/7 and a large air compressor would not be acceptable.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=oOy35LfFI5c

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Good morning Rick,

I neglected to mention to you that a double diaphragm pump with a pulsation damper can be totally submerged in the sump pit reducing any noise to just air bubbles.

You could use a smaller V twin piston compressor vertical tank Ingersoll Rand air compressor and operate the double diaphragm pump at a slower flow rate with the double diaphragm pump with the muffler and pulsation damper submerged.

About the you tube video:

In this video they were transferring chemicals; they were using a gasoline powered air compressor and the double diaphragm pump did not have a (1) muffler or (2) a pulsation damper which is equivalent to an accumulator to reduce vibration/jumping back and forth with each stroke and noise to almost no real noticeable noise and the air compressor they were using was a gasoline engine powered piston type air compressor.


The smallest electric 3 phase Atlas Copco screw compressor is built inside a sound proofed enclosure could be placed in a portable wooden shed with the 3 inch diaphragm pump to pump the basement sump dry every day.

The Gorman Rupp single diaphragm pumps have more parts because they use very heavy components to push and pull the diaphragm to work to pump trash filled water and sludge.

pecmsg

1St the reason you're chewing up pumps is the short cycling. Get multiple pumps small med and large to better match the load.
Next threaten the city, county and state with a lawsuit for the damages there causing.

leonz

Effective series staging of electric drainage pumps can be done by using 3 sets of mercury tilt switches
by locating the sump pumps at three elevations in a sump pit.

The one and done simplicity of a double diaphragm pump is the reason I suggested the air operated double diaphragm pump as an option versus the use of centrifugal self priming centrifugal pumps.

The double diaphragm pumps can be run submerged pumping at a slow rate and pump massive amounts of water per minute when needed by opening the ball valve more and delivering the air to the diaphragm pump and they can be run dry for extended periods without damage. A little marvel mystery oil lubricating oil squirted into the air line occasionally helps the lubricate the air valve.

The suction inlet screen baskets can be mounted vertically in the pump inlets simplifying the plumbing
by using a 3'" short nipple, 3'" elbow and the inlet strainer basket if it has a male threaded end.

A single wire reinforced discharge hose can be used to connect the sand piper pump to a 3 inch PVC riser pipe with a 3 inch flap check valve that is plumbed into the floor nipple pipe with a union fitting.

Selling the water for pools and selling it by the truck load for household use would make him a great deal of money with 1,000 gallon lots at $45.00 per thousand gallons which is what they charge up here for water.

Jamie Hall

From long and occasional miserable experience, a tip: if you are planning on depending on a pump to keep critical things dry or at least drier, you need dual alternating pumps (two equal pumps and a controller which switches the lead pump on every cycle) with a high level override which bring both pumps on. Then you need an alarm, and the alarm must be set to notify you when the lag pump is turned on. I have investigated too many catastrophic floods from the alarm being set higher -- and one of the pumps had failed. And then when the other failed, there were no usable pumps and things got soggy....

RickDelta

Jamie Hall said:

From long and occasional miserable experience, a tip: if you are planning on depending on a pump to keep critical things dry or at least drier, you need dual alternating pumps (two equal pumps and a controller which switches the lead pump on every cycle) with a high level override which bring both pumps on. Then you need an alarm, and the alarm must be set to notify you when the lag pump is turned on. I have investigated too many catastrophic floods from the alarm being set higher -- and one of the pumps had failed. And then when the other failed, there were no usable pumps and things got soggy....

The controller I programmed (above) address all that! ..... even sends text message when in alarm!

Zman

Some random thoughts…

Pumps really prefer pushing over pulling. I would be reluctant to move them above.

A siphon like you are describing is very difficult to maintain unless you are able to keep both the intake and discharge pipes underwater at all times. The air always seems to work its way up from the discharge if it is in open air.

Have you considered putting VFDs on the pumps and sensing the water level with a strip that will tell the exact level of the water. You could program the VFDs to maintain the water level at a constant elevation with little or no short cycling.

This is an interesting post. Be sure to let us know how this works out!

RickDelta

"@leonz"

I hear all that your saying! ..... Thank-you!

At times, in the existing small sump pit, the water coming in is no more than a single garden hose.
At other times, like right now, I have three, 5hp 3" discharge pumps running 24/7 !!
The dynamic span of water flow into the basement is scary! : (

Right now if you were to put mercury tilt flots down inside this sump pit, the powerful turbulence from in in-rush of water would erratically topple the floats every witch way.