Thoughts on upgrading boiler system

Aviationguy

Hello everyone, someone over at Reddit recommended posting here at strictly steam! Well I've bought my first home and I've been living in it for two years. It's steam heat and my boiler is ancient! It still works like a charm though, my question is it time to maybe upgrade?

The house is from 1959 so I would assume this boiler is from 60-70's era? It gets pretty cold here in Ohio and I feel sometimes it has a hard time keeping up. When I set my thermostat to 68 the best it does on a real cold night is roughly 63-65 degrees. My gas bill has been in the mid 200's.  It's a homart brand and I have tons of manuals on it from the previous owner.

Should I look into installing a boiler from the 21st century?

I can post more pics or manuals, whatever information you need.

bburd

It looks like you have hot water heat, not steam heat; and that boiler may well be original to the house. Have you had it serviced and the combustion checked?

Mad Dog_2

No....Unless you have disposable income for that.  If it's not leaking on the floor and you're getting it PROPERLY serviced annually (check draft, chimney, Combustion efficiency, CO & CO2 Levels), start putting away for a new one.  I just replaced my brother Bart's  small gas, HW boiler...puppy ran for 65 yrs...Replaced with Burnham atmospheric boiler and Turbomax indirect-meat 🍖 & potatoes 🥔 work horse 🐎 nothing fancy.  Mad Dog 🐕 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Aviationguy

If you decide to replace it try and make it a summertime job. Doing a rush job in the winter is more $$$ and you probably won't get as good a job.

Check "find a contractor" on this site and post your location. Someone may have a recommendation.


The right contractor is the most important thing.

pecmsg

When " it has a hard time keeping up" does the burner stay on continually?
Agree with the others unless there's a failure do not replace it at this time.
How's the insulation in the home, windows, doors? Get a blower door test performed and find out where improvements can be made. Tightening the envelope will give you a return on investment, a new boiler rarely pays off.

EricPeterson

Aviationguy said:

It gets pretty cold here in Ohio and I feel sometimes it has a hard time keeping up. When I set my thermostat to 68 the best it does on a real cold night is roughly 63-65 degrees.  

On those cold nights I assume the circulator is running continuously.
Is the burner also firing continuously? If not have you checked the setpoint on the boiler?
If the radiators are all hot and the call for heat cannot be met, then you need to think about insulation and air infiltration.
If the radiators are not all hot then the boiler is not keeping up with the heat load, it could be undersized or running with a low setpoint, or some other problem could be preventing it from delivering heat.

Eric

Aviationguy

Thanks for the comments everyone, previous owner had it regularly serviced. I also recently had it serviced by a technician and they said the system is running great and wouldn't replace it. Based on what everyone said here and what the technician said, I'm just gonna let the boiler be.

bburd

As others have mentioned, an adjustment to the boiler's controls (low and high limit aquastat settings) may be all that is needed. There might also be air in the system interfering with water circulation; rugs or furniture interfering with air circulation through the radiators; or dirt and dust accumulation on the radiators.

Aviationguy

bburd said:

It looks like you have hot water heat, not steam heat; and that boiler may well be original to the house. Have you had it serviced and the combustion checked?

Just had her serviced, the technician said it was operating really well and they did the combustion check. He spent a good amount of time down there cleaning everything. I was actually impressed with the overall service.

delcrossv

Can you post some pics of the piping around the boiler? There should be a pump and a line leading to a tank at the ceiling. ( I see the compression tank in the background)

System probably needs a good air bleed to run its best. May add an air separator and an Airtrol fitting at the tank.

bburd

Aviationguy said:

Just had her serviced, the technician said it was operating really well and they did the combustion check. He spent a good amount of time down there cleaning everything. I was actually impressed with the overall service.

Did you ask the technician about the underheating problem? If so, what did they say?

jesmed1

I wouldn't be surprised if the radiators are full of air, hence the "underheating" problem. The boiler tech would not have checked that part of the system. The boiler can be running perfectly, as the tech said, but air in your radiators will interfere with the water circulation and prevent them from getting hot.

You will soon find that keeping air out of your radiators is the #1 problem for those of us with older hot water heating systems that lack air separators, as your system apparently does.

delcrossv

jesmed1 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the radiators are full of air, hence the "underheating" problem. The boiler tech would not have checked that part of the system. The boiler can be running perfectly, as the tech said, but air in your radiators will interfere with the water circulation and prevent them from getting hot.

You will soon find that keeping air out of your radiators is the #1 problem for those of us with older hot water heating systems that lack air separators, as your system apparently does.

You may want to ask your tech about adding an air separator to your supply line and an Airtrol to your compression tank.

jesmed1

delcrossv said:

You may want to ask your tech about adding an air separator to your supply line and an Airtrol to your compression tank.

Thanks, I learned about the Airtrol here a few months ago and recently installed one. We have a Weil-McLain WGO boiler with an air separator built into the boiler casting, with a separate port for directing the air bubbles up into the expansion tank, so we didn't need an add-on air separator. @EdTheHeaterMan pointed that out to me. So our Airtrol is now in action, and I'll be interested to check our radiators for air at the end of the heating season and see how well it's working.

delcrossv

@jesmed1 No worries. Although I quoted you as you had good points, my comment was to the OP mostly. You're lucky you have a boiler casting for air sep. That's another cool feature that's gone with the wind.
I'd like to hear your experience at the end of the season.

jesmed1

delcrossv said:

@jesmed1 No worries. Although I quoted you as you had good points, my comment was to the OP mostly. You're lucky you have a boiler casting for air sep. That's another cool feature that's gone with the wind.
I'd like to hear your experience at the end of the season.

Oh, sorry. Yes, it will be interesting to see if that cast-in air separator works.

EdTheHeaterMan

delcrossv said:

@jesmed1 No worries. Although I quoted you as you had good points, my comment was to the OP mostly. You're lucky you have a boiler casting for air sep. That's another cool feature that's gone with the wind.
I'd like to hear your experience at the end of the season.

Actually there are lots of boilers that have that feature still being manufactured today.

Not so much on the low volume modcons but on the steel and cast iron boilers, lost of 'em still do it.

hot_rod

It is the tiny  micro bubbles that are hard to eliminate with just a low velocity chamber

With thin metal boilers, multiple small loop type heat exchangers, higher flow velocities in mod cons becomes crucial to get all air out quickly and efficiently. Putting a media inside or spinning a vortex are really the best way. All boilers and heat pumps benefit from microbubble type air seps. Even if they have air elimination chambers

Aviationguy

delcrossv said:

Can you post some pics of the piping around the boiler? There should be a pump and a line leading to a tank at the ceiling. ( I see the compression tank in the background) System probably needs a good air bleed to run its best. May add an air separator and an Airtrol fitting at the tank.

I will take some pics when I get home. Thanks for the advice

Aviationguy

bburd said:

Aviationguy said:

Just had her serviced, the technician said it was operating really well and they did the combustion check. He spent a good amount of time down there cleaning everything. I was actually impressed with the overall service.

Did you ask the technician about the underheating problem? If so, what did they say?

I asked him, he was an older gentleman with an apprentice. So I took his word for what he told me. He said I need better insulation in my house, and he's right I do. He also said better Windows would help somewhat. But I'm going to tackle the insulation and adding two radiators first.

He initially said do not add two radiators, so that kind of threw me off but I really want to add two.

I'm going to call the guy everyone here recommended on another post I made and get my radiators all checked up too. See if anything needs bled or adjusted. I'm also going to bring up the few things everyone said here.

exqheat

What temperature is your aquastat set at. Post a picture. Too high and it will send air from boiling water to the radiators. Too low and the heat is not sufficient for those coldest days.

Aviationguy

Aviationguy

I know this might be a stupid question. But what are these? I'm assuming something to adjust radiators? But I just want to be sure.

Aviationguy

exqheat said:

What temperature is your aquastat set at. Post a picture. Too high and it will send air from boiling water to the radiators. Too low and the heat is not sufficient for those coldest days.

How on earth do I set the aquastat? What's it supposed to be? I keep my thermostat on 68 throughout the winter.

Sorry for my ignorance I literally know nothing about boilers and the manual I have here is not very straightforward. I also found a manual online but it gives me a huge variety of different layouts and I'm honestly not sure which one I have.

This attachment I posted just now is like the exact system I have but if you read through it, it has many different layouts.

Jamie Hall

Those two odd gadgets are keys to operate the bleed valves on the radiators. Handy. Don't lose them...

Aviationguy

Jamie Hall said:

Those two odd gadgets are keys to operate the bleed valves on the radiators. Handy. Don't lose them...

Thank you sir, I might try to tackle it myself and see what happens. I just don't want to mess anything up.

SeanBeans

@Aviationguy

that grey box inside the boiler is your aquastat.

open that up with the power to the boiler off.
there is a dial that controls the temperature of the water . See what that says and report back

delcrossv

Couple of things: Looks like you have some type of air separator there already (red loop).


Second, you really should replace the rotted pipe within the blue loop That would entail draining everything though.

Aviationguy

delcrossv said:

Couple of things: Looks like you have some type of air separator there already (red loop). Second, you really should replace the rotted pipe within the blue loop That would entail draining everything though.

Okay well I guess that's good I have the air separator, I am in the talks with my current plumber to replace that pipe. He ran a few gas lines for me and he says he can fix that no problem. But my concern was what you stated. He would have to tap into the system and or drain and refill.

Is this a huge process? I would assume you would have to use distilled water?

 I would hope that all my pipes for the system are not galvanized I'm thinking they are steel maybe? Not sure what is common on these. But all my other pipes for plumbing are galvanized unfortunately. Slowley getting those replaced.

Aviationguy

SeanBeans said:

@Aviationguy

that grey box inside the boiler is your aquastat.

open that up with the power to the boiler off.
there is a dial that controls the temperature of the water . See what that says and report back

Here she is.

Aviationguy

I also have this if anyone is interested. It's from the last tune/checkup

delcrossv

Aviationguy said:

delcrossv said:

Couple of things: Looks like you have some type of air separator there already (red loop). Second, you really should replace the rotted pipe within the blue loop That would entail draining everything though.

Okay well I guess that's good I have the air separator, I am in the talks with my current plumber to replace that pipe. He ran a few gas lines for me and he says he can fix that no problem. But my concern was what you stated. He would have to tap into the system and or drain and refill.

Is this a huge process? I would assume you would have to use distilled water?

 I would hope that all my pipes for the system are not galvanized I'm thinking they are steel maybe? Not sure what is common on these. But all my other pipes for plumbing are galvanized unfortunately. Slowley getting those replaced.

No, tap water is fine. Drain, replace pipe, fill, bleed system. Not a huge process,  but somewhat time consuming. 
There should be a system drain somewhere. 

Heating systems, when installed with threaded pipe,  use black iron. Galvanized is for potable water. What you see is silver paint. 

PeteA

Jamie Hall said:

Those two odd gadgets are keys to operate the bleed valves on the radiators. Handy. Don't lose them...

@Aviationguy

I actually think the 2 items on top of the boiler belong to a paint sprayer. Those are the nozzles that control the spray pattern and volume for different types of paint. They get installed into the spray gun nozzle.

Aviationguy

PeteA said:

Those two odd gadgets are keys to operate the bleed valves on the radiators. Handy. Don't lose them...

@Aviationguy I actually think the 2 items on top of the boiler belong to a paint sprayer. Those are the nozzles that control the spray pattern and volume for different types of paint. They get installed into the spray gun nozzle.

What the heck?? Really??

PeteA

@Aviationguy
yup take a close look at them they usually have an arrow showing the direction of the spray and some other info like the orifice size and manufacturer molded into the plastic part.

bburd

That is a high limit aquastat which sets the maximum temperature of water leaving the boiler; and it is set too low. It probably has a 10° fixed differential, so it will stop the burners at that setting of 175°F and restart them at 165°F. This gives you an average supply water temperature of 170°F leaving the boiler, and 160°F in the radiators.

Most of those systems were designed for an average water temperature of 180°F at design weather conditions and a maximum 20° temperature difference between supply and return at the boiler.

Try raising the aquastat to 190°F. You can go a bit higher if necessary without boiling the water, since the system is pressurized. This will probably fix your underheating problem.

Aviationguy

bburd said:

That is a high limit aquastat which sets the maximum temperature of water leaving the boiler; and it is set too low. It probably has a 10° fixed differential, so it will stop the burners at that setting of 175°F and restart them at 165°F. This gives you an average supply water temperature of 170°F leaving the boiler, and 160°F in the radiators.

Most of those systems were designed for an average water temperature of 180°F at design weather conditions and a maximum 20° temperature difference between supply and return at the boiler.

Try raising the aquastat to 190°F. You can go a bit higher if necessary without boiling the water, since the system is pressurized. This will probably fix your underheating problem.

So I just turn that dial to 190 and call it a day? Or is there any other steps?

bburd

The only other step is to see how the place heats. If it still doesn't keep up on a really cold night, turn it up a bit more.

delcrossv

bburd said:

The only other step is to see how the place heats. If it still doesn't keep up on a really cold night, turn it up a bit more.

Rather than that, make sure you don't have air in the rads FIRST. If there's air in the rads, you can turn it up all day and it still won't heat well. But it should be at 180 +/-.

On another point, did the tech drain the compression tank as part of your service?

Edit: Bet someone turned the aquastat down to preserve that rubber mess on the return pipe.

NoelAnderson

If you are going to the trouble of fixing the rubber coupling, you should know that the circulator should not be mounted with the shaft vertically. I personally would replace the pipe on the return side and then replace the union and the pipe on the boiler outlet after the air separator with the circulator with its shaft mounted horizontally so the system will now be pumping away from the point of no pressure change. I would also maybe look at replacing the aquastat with a new modern hydrostat for efficiency.

delcrossv

NoelAnderson said:

If you are going to the trouble of fixing the rubber coupling, you should know that the circulator should not be mounted with the shaft vertically. I personally would replace the pipe on the return side and then replace the union and the pipe on the boiler outlet after the air separator with the circulator with its shaft mounted horizontally so the system will now be pumping away from the point of no pressure change. I would also maybe look at replacing the aquastat with a new modern hydrostat for efficiency.

Only if you willing to add an outdoor reset etc. Probably not worth the expense.

Although the location isn't great, I'd worry about breaking something in trying to move that pump.