asbestos?

lbeachmike

In the basement of my 1940 house, I have some old pipes from old radiator heating that was removed by the previous owners. A few pipes are exposed - most are behind paneling. We once found a loose chunk of asbestos insulation behind a section of paneling. I just noticed the below on one of the exposed pipes. Does this look like remnants of asbestos insulation?

Steamhead

Yes.

lbeachmike

Steamhead said:

Yes.

Is this very common? How much of a concern is this? I intend to have a remediation company come and remove those unused pipes. But as mentioned, there are many other of these cut pipes that were left behind the paneling. If the asbestos was never abated properly, then I also have no knowledge of what dust and debris behind any of the paneling may contain asbestos.

pecmsg

My apologies but:
No One is allowed to say it is or it isn’t without lab tests!
samples MUST be taken and tested!

lbeachmike

pecmsg said:

My apologies but:
No One is allowed to say it is or it isn’t without lab tests!
samples MUST be taken and tested!

I get that. But it appears to be quite probable, based on my own knowledge - which is why I asked about it. I have no reason to test this particular section of pipes - it will be simpler for it to be removed (or encapsulated.)

As for anything else, I have to rely on the expertise of the remediation company, but I would like whatever insight you guys have on the topic.

I am less concerned with what I can see. More concerned with what I cannot see.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I've had asbestos remnants in my last two houses and I spray them with water and wipe them up. If it were anything more than bits and pieces, I would have arranged for remediation.

SlamDunk

When in doubt, assume that it is. You can bag some of that and send it out for analysis.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@lbeachmike

In general, any asbestos behind paneling is probably no danger. It is only a danger when friable or when it is disturbed or moved.

Thousands of buildings have asbestos in them in vinyl floor tiles and the mastic that holds the tile in place. if not disturbed it causes no issues.

Some of the asbestos that was mined has large particles and some has small particles. The particle size matters as it is the smaller particles that can't easily be coughed up. So even if it tests as asbestos it may not be dangerous.

That being said the material in your photos looks like asbestos and with the age of the house it likely is asbestos.

lbeachmike

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

I've had asbestos remnants in my last two houses and I spray them with water and wipe them up. If it were anything more than bits and pieces, I would have arranged for remediation.

Why did you deem it safe to wet and wipe up small visible amounts? The fibers are microscopic.

lbeachmike

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@lbeachmike

In general, any asbestos behind paneling is probably no danger. It is only a danger when friable or when it is disturbed or moved.

But the point here is that it all *was* disturbed. It appears that it was all disturbed when the prior owners had the home renovated. As mentioned before, we previously found a whole chunk of asbestos pipe insulation that had fallen onto a 2x4 behind one section of paneling. And we have the pipes in the photo here.

If things were disturbed, that would suggest that friable particles ended up in places I cannot visibly see or am not aware of.

mattmia2

I think the standard test for this is to pull air through a filter at a known rate for some period of time and see how many particles of asbestos are in the filter. Fibers that became airborne and settled in other parts of the house are probably more of an issue than debris inside the walls if it was disturbed without being contained.

bburd

So far as I know, the only people who got asbestosis / mesothelioma either worked with the stuff on a daily basis (miners, insulators etc.) or lived with one of those workers.

The EPA and news media scared the daylights out of the general public in the 1970s and a lot of asbestos in buildings that would best have been left undisturbed was ripped out, putting the fibers into the air--which is the only way they can harm people.

A great many older buildings have asbestos in their construction materials. I don't know of anyone who has ever been harmed by it except as noted above.

lbeachmike

bburd said:

So far as I know, the only people who got asbestosis / mesothelioma either worked with the stuff on a daily basis (miners, insulators etc.) or lived with one of those workers.

The EPA and news media scared the daylights out of the general public in the 1970s and a lot of asbestos in buildings that would best have been left undisturbed was ripped out, putting the fibers into the air--which is the only way they can harm people.

A great many older buildings have asbestos in their construction materials. I don't know of anyone who has ever been harmed by it except as noted above.

I totally agree with you on all of your points. I actually believe there were three groups, but can't recall the third group at the moment. The problem is that, like many other things, they scare the crap out of us and create a new industry.

KarlW

So, I got attacked on the last post for making the very valid point that Asbestos is a health hazard but NOT an environmental hazard.

In New York State, the only requirement is that it go to a municipal landfill (likely because there was a case where a guy brought the asbestos and dumped it in his backyard).

I confirmed this with the folks who demolished many Eastman Kodak buildings in Rochester, NY. Kodak built these buildings to last and filled them with asbestos so they wouldn't burn down. It was a multi-year, multi-million dollar project with tons of asbestos abatement, all brought to regular dumps.

lbeachmike

KarlW said:

So, I got attacked on the last post for making the very valid point that Asbestos is a health hazard but NOT an environmental hazard.

In New York State, the only requirement is that it go to a municipal landfill (likely because there was a case where a guy brought the asbestos and dumped it in his backyard).

I confirmed this with the folks who demolished many Eastman Kodak buildings in Rochester, NY. Kodak built these buildings to last and filled them with asbestos so they wouldn't burn down. It was a multi-year, multi-million dollar project with tons of asbestos abatement, all brought to regular dumps.

Very interesting. Is your point that if the concern was greater, it would not be permitted to bring to regular dumps? What is your take on the concern level for a circumstance like mine - which obviously is not very unique - probably the only thing unique in my case is that I actually noticed it and recognized what it was.

PRR

You may have trouble when you *sell* the house if the buyers or inspector can "see" asbestos.
We removed all visible white insulation. The buyers' inspector opened a sealed hatch (I thot they were not supposed to?) and saw white stuff. We had to pay for remediation to safeguard the buyers' two children.
If I had it to do again I would have remediated myself or put a lot more brick and mortar on that access hole.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@lbeachmike

You have every right to be concerned and I would get an abatement company involved but I wouldn't be overly concerned.

I think the government carried thing to the extreme which is normally what they do. They impose heavy fines and all kind of remediation efforts then 20 years later they start backing off.

I sold my house 3 years ago and it had some vermiculate insulation in the attic. The buyers home inspector saw it and put up a red flag. I called an abatement company, and it probably was going to cost me 2k to get rid of it. The abatement Co told me they could test it and would but that 80% of the vermiculite has asbestos of the type that will not hurt you. I told the buyer I would get it removed or lower my price...their choice.

They took the lower price, and I am sure the vermiculite is still there..

mattmia2

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

The abatement Co told me they could test it and would but that 80% of the vermiculite has asbestos of the type that will not hurt you. I told the buyer I would get it removed or lower my price...their choice.

It is hard to tell if papers that say some types of asbestos are not dangerous are legitimate research or are papers written by someone that was paid by someone trying to avoid liability with the conclusion formed first and the data picked to support that conclusion.

KarlW

lbeachmike said:

Very interesting. Is your point that if the concern was greater, it would not be permitted to bring to regular dumps? What is your take on the concern level for a circumstance like mine - which obviously is not very unique - probably the only thing unique in my case is that I actually noticed it and recognized what it was.

It just isn't a hazardous waste - asbestos came from the ground, it can go back in.

As to the level of concern, I'm on the less hazardous side - I'm in the camp where, although the danger is real unless you are constantly working with asbestos, the risk is very low.

You could just wear an N95 mask, use a HEPA vac (people will disagree with that), and MAKE SURE TO WET any suspected asbestos then scrape it an remove it. Then, assuming you have municipal trash (gov't or a reputable company like Waste Management), just bag it and throw it away.

KarlW

lbeachmike said:

Very interesting. Is your point that if the concern was greater, it would not be permitted to bring to regular dumps? What is your take on the concern level for a circumstance like mine - which obviously is not very unique - probably the only thing unique in my case is that I actually noticed it and recognized what it was.

It just isn't a hazardous waste - asbestos came from the ground, it can go back in.

As to the level of concern, I'm on the less hazardous side - I'm in the camp where, although the danger is real if you are constantly working with asbestos, the risk is very low.

You could just wear an N95 mask, use a HEPA vac (people will disagree with that), and MAKE SURE TO WET any suspected asbestos, then scrape it and remove it. Then, assuming you have municipal trash (gov't or a reputable company like Waste Management), just bag it and throw it away.

lbeachmike

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@lbeachmike

You have every right to be concerned and I would get an abatement company involved but I wouldn't be overly concerned.

The funny thing is that when we had the stray chunk that we found in the wall, the abatement company didn't even want to charge me for it. They sent a guy to remove it for free. They didn't try to turn things into a larger scope. I'm pretty sure they won't be making a big deal of this finding either.

lbeachmike

KarlW said:

You could just wear an N95 mask

I'm sure you are right from a practical standpoint, but it's worth pointing out that N95 is not the correct mask for protection from asbestos.

pecmsg

Why are there respirators for asbestos if you advise just the basic face mask?

All this Misinformation is detrimental to the average homeowner and flat out dangerous!

Are the Law's a little overkill, yes but they are the law. Don't like them than change them!

lbeachmike

pecmsg said:

Why are there respirators for asbestos if you advise just the basic face mask?

All this Misinformation is detrimental to the average homeowner and flat out dangerous!

Are the Law's a little overkill, yes but they are the law. Don't like them than change them!

This is not even a matter of any law. It's just physics. N95 doesn't filter asbestos particles.

ethicalpaul

KarlW said:

It just isn't a hazardous waste - asbestos came from the ground, it can go back in.

This is not how hazardous waste is defined. Everything came from the ground.

lbeachmike

ethicalpaul said:

Everything came from the ground.

Lol. So true.

Intplm.

lbeachmike said:

In the basement of my 1940 house, I have some old pipes from old radiator heating that was removed by the previous owners. A few pipes are exposed - most are behind paneling. We once found a loose chunk of asbestos insulation behind a section of paneling. I just noticed the below on one of the exposed pipes. Does this look like remnants of asbestos insulation?

That probably is a remnant of asbestos pipe insulation.

Depending on your level of concern, you can, if you like spray it with water and clean it off as @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes mentions above. I know many who have. Especially if it is this little of a spot on your pipes. But that is not what many recommend. To me, this is not a remediation company call to hire.

If you have a large quantity of asbestos in the house and it isn't "friable". (meaning it is not a particulate or air-born disturbed,) then it shouldn't be a concern.

Many have put modern insulation over pipes as pictured above.
If these pipes are active they need to be insulated anyway.

KarlW

ethicalpaul said:

This is not how hazardous waste is defined. Everything came from the ground.

That may be true, but friable and non-friable asbestos is just not hazardous waste. It must be brought to any proper landfill, that is it. It’s not like PCBs, oil-contaminated soils or worse that have to go to designated hazardous waste sites.

SlamDunk

If you have an abatement company you like doing business with, by all means, call them in.

Me personally, I would don a P100 respirator, a tyvek hooded suit, place a towel under it, spray it down with Fantastic or 409, wipe it down, bag everything and dispose of responsibly.

Disposing of properly is the tricky part. Not many landfills want the stuff. At least not around here.

pecmsg

SlamDunk said:

If you have an abatement company you like doing business with, by all means, call them in. Me personally, I would don a P100 respirator, a tyvek hooded suit, place a towel under it, spray it down with Fantastic or 409, wipe it down, bag everything and dispose of responsibly. Disposing of properly is the tricky part. Not many landfills want the stuff. At least not around here.

Finally someone that knows!

realliveplumber

KarlW said:

ethicalpaul said:

This is not how hazardous waste is defined. Everything came from the ground.

That may be true, but friable and non-friable asbestos is just not hazardous waste. It must be brought to any proper landfill, that is it. It’s not like PCBs, oil-contaminated soils or worse that have to go to designated hazardous waste sites.

Karl knows, too.

In NJ, they send a dumpster that is lined with a giant poly bag. The asbestos goes in the fancy bag, then its taped up.

Then the big truck comes and takes it to the landfill. The same landfill everything else goes to. Then the loader/ compactor drives over it and rips open the fancy plastic bag

Dave Carpentier

Asbestos that ppl might encounter come in 2 types , I read, curly fibers or straight rod type fibres. Its the rods that can get lodged into the wee pockets of your lung air sacs. A testing lab can see which from a small sample. Not overly expensive.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Oil comes out of the ground too. Doesn't mean you can dump it anywhere you want.