To those with more knowledge than myself, would you install a new gas or heating oil system ?

travler

Hello all, first post….thank you for all the info provided here.

We are buying an old home in Maine, it presently has no heat system in the home and I’m looking at gas fired and heating oil systems, trying to determine which one to use. I’m thinking baseboard hot water on the exterior walls. Either system will need the fuel delivered by truck. The basement foundation is brand new, house is old and wall are stripped.

I’m interested in possibly the latest state of the art quality system that you would choose for yourself.

Thank you for any input or opinion

SuperTech

It depends on the price and how you plan on heating the house. In my area LP and oil are even and oil delivers more BTUS per gallon. You can get higher combustion efficiency out of LP, especially if you are using it for low temperature radiant floor heating.  But cast  iron boilers and oil furnaces tend to last longer than condensing gas boilers and furnaces. Electric heat pumps are an option too. I think they are best used in conjunction with a oil or gas furnace.  Even though the technology is available to not need a fuel source I would rather have a fossil fuel appliance for reliability and ease of service. 

travler

Thank you, excellent info

WMno57

There is an Oil bias on this site. Possibly because the majority of wallies are on the East coast. Little natural gas out there, and in the cities your not going to have outdoor propane tanks on 50 foot wide lots. Here in the Midwest almost no one uses oil. Those in the country here who don't have NG use propane
Since NG is not an option for you, I suggest Propane.

• Burns cleaner
  
• Cheaper to maintain
  
• Supports generators, water heaters, clothes dryers, stoves, ranges, fireplace inserts
  
• Tank doesn't need to be in the basement (got to keep oil warm)
  
• A leak is less of a problem, and your house won't smell like a truck stop
  
• Some worry about gas explosions, but new lines done to code are leak proof
  
• Probably cheaper
  

Hydronics vs Forced Air
Again there is a hydronics bias on this site. Hydronics is slightly more comfortable. Forced air is better if your home is in an area that has power outages (nothing to freeze). Forced air and ductwork dovetails nicely with heat pumps and central AC (dont know if you need AC).

ChrisJ

I do not do this for a living and I do not work in the industry.

But back in 2011 I made the decision to convert my own home from oil to natural gas and I'd do the same again if I had to do it over. Even without pricing, the convivence of natural gas and all of the things I can do with (water heater, clothes dryer, stove, outside grills, generator) it make it well worth it.


@WMno57 Unless you know of a place where it's legal to live in a house without indoor plumbing the freezing argument doesn't hold water. You still can't have plumbing freezing.

WMno57

Big difference $$,$$$ between domestic water freezing with the water shut off and a freezup with the water left on. If the water is left on and the pipes freeze, you might get a frozen waterfall coming out a second floor window. This happened to my neighbor's home (long story) It was beautiful, but destroyed the house. A frozen pipe with the water shut off is a minor plumbing repair. Now days you can use PEX and it is somewhat tolerant of freezing.
I firmly believe hydronic heat is the wrong choice for vacation homes in cold areas.

WMno57

@chrisj Tens of thousands of Amish homes without indoor plumbing. I really don't care what some bureaucrat says is "legal" or not. In my house, I am the law!

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

@chrisj Tens of thousands of Amish homes without indoor plumbing. I really don't care what some bureaucrat says is "legal" or not. In my house, I am the law!

Never thought I'd be having an argument with someone about the importance of indoor plumbing.

Regardless, those Amish homes don't have forced air.


Strange argument..............

Vacation home I'm thinking wood stove is best choice but forced air would probably be fine. I haven't put any thought into such situations honestly.

WMno57

I guess my point is, in an emergency, it is possible to do without indoor plumbing for a couple of days.

pecmsg

travler said:

Hello all, first post….thank you for all the info provided here.

We are buying an old home in Maine, it presently has no heat system in the home and I’m looking at gas fired and heating oil systems, trying to determine which one to use. I’m thinking baseboard hot water on the exterior walls. Either system will need the fuel delivered by truck. The basement foundation is brand new, house is old and wall are stripped.
I’m interested in possibly the latest state of the art
quality system that you would choose for yourself.

Thank you for any input or opinion

Quality is determined by the installing contractor.

Are you going to use this as a primary residence or weekend home?

LP can and usually is very expensive, with your choice's id go with oil.

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

travler said:

Hello all, first post….thank you for all the info provided here.

We are buying an old home in Maine, it presently has no heat system in the home and I’m looking at gas fired and heating oil systems, trying to determine which one to use. I’m thinking baseboard hot water on the exterior walls. Either system will need the fuel delivered by truck. The basement foundation is brand new, house is old and wall are stripped.
I’m interested in possibly the latest state of the art
quality system that you would choose for yourself.

Thank you for any input or opinion

Quality is determined by the installing contractor.

Are you going to use this as a primary residence or weekend home?

LP can and usually is very expensive, with your choice's id go with oil.

I think my dad just said he paid $1.77 a gallon for LPG in PA.
He was amazed how cheap it was.

Jamie Hall

Oil vs. LP. Myself I'd go for oil, but I'm a bit of an antique. The first -- and most importtant -- thing to check is price, keeping in mind, firmly in mind, that roughly speaking LP will take half again as many gallons to heat the place as oil will, so the price difference must be adjusted for that (multiply the LP price by 1.5 to compare it to the oil price).

The relative prices of the two tend to hold constant over time in a given area, but vary widely from place to place. In the midwest where @WMno57 is located, LP is cheap, since lots of farms use lots of it. In most of New England, it is anything but cheap. So do your numbers.

The biggest single advantage of LP is you can also use it for cooking. This may be a factor.

hot_rod

You will also want to make the home as energy efficient as possible. The lower the heat load the lower the cost of keeping it warm. Check into energy upgrades or weatherazation programs in your area.
Sizing and installing a system is step 2 or 3

Design a hydronic system to operate with no higher than 120 supply temperature and then you have options for a heat pump, solar, high efficiency boiler operation.

Panel radiators are a nice option to fin tube

STEVEusaPA

ChrisJ said:

...Never thought I'd be having an argument with someone about the importance of indoor plumbing...

.

Have you now covered everything you could possibly argue about?

ChrisJ

STEVEusaPA said:

ChrisJ said:

...Never thought I'd be having an argument with someone about the importance of indoor plumbing...

.

Have you now covered everything you could possibly argue about?

No.

EdTheHeaterMan

ChrisJ said:

I think my dad just said he paid $1.77 a gallon for LPG in PA.
He was amazed how cheap it was.

I remember driving past the refineries in south west Philadelphia along the Schyulkill River and seeing very tall stacks with a large flame burning at the top. I was told that those flames were LP gas that was a byproduct of making No Lead Gasoline. The reason it was being burned off like that was because it was too expensive to make storage tanks, it was easier and less expensive to just waste it away into the atmosphere. So If it was cheaper to just waste it, then why is it so expensive to get it delivered to a customer's LP tank on their property so they can heat their home with what was getting discarded at the source?

The cost and liability of liquifying it, storing it, transporting it, and then local on site storage for use in your home, is the only real cost, in my opinion. Since the other option seems to be throwing it away. It’s like when a restaurant throws away mass quantities of food at the end of an event, while poor and homeless around the block go hungry that same evening.

I believe that LP Gas is way overpriced in some markets. Just my opinion.

hot_rod

Some additional info. Compare fuel costs here.

https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

The EIA website has fuel costs for various areas of the country with data going back 20 years or more to get past fuel cost trends.

leonz

travler said:

Hello all, first post….thank you for all the info provided here.

We are buying an old home in Maine, it presently has no heat system in the home and I’m looking at gas fired and heating oil systems, trying to determine which one to use. I’m thinking baseboard hot water on the exterior walls. Either system will need the fuel delivered by truck. The basement foundation is brand new, house is old and walls are stripped.

I’m interested in possibly the latest state of the art quality system that you would choose for yourself.

Thank you for any input or opinion

================================================================

As long as I am commenting here, I will make the suggestion that I will also get yelled at for making.
I have a poorly insulated home just like yours. I heat my home with a coal stoker boiler that also has a domestic hot water coil that allows me to use coal to make all our domestic hot water during the heating season.

If I was still using kerosene for heating fuel and depending on a fuel dealer that would let us run out of fuel I would be burning 250+ gallons of kerosene every ten days.

You could install a coal stoker boiler and use overhead hot water or overhead dry steam to your advantage and heat your new home efficiently with Anthracite Rice or Pea Coal which has the highest heat value per pound and also make all your domestic hot water the year round.

A single pipe overhead bottom fed dry steam heating system using a coal stoker boiler with a double drop header has no return piping to plumb and you could use reclaimed salvaged and tested steam radiators from a house salvage company to heat your home at a lower cost.

Anthracite coal has the highest heat BTU value per pound of all fuel types and is available in The State of Maine.

leonz

hot_rod said:

Some additional info. Compare fuel costs here.

https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

The EIA website has fuel costs for various areas of the country with data going back 20 years or more to get past fuel cost trends.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Bob, I could not get my coalpail fuel; comparison file to upload.

Robert O'Brien

travler said:

Hello all, first post….thank you for all the info provided here.

We are buying an old home in Maine, it presently has no heat system in the home and I’m looking at gas fired and heating oil systems, trying to determine which one to use. I’m thinking baseboard hot water on the exterior walls. Either system will need the fuel delivered by truck. The basement foundation is brand new, house is old and wall are stripped.

I’m interested in possibly the latest state of the art quality system that you would choose for yourself.

Thank you for any input or opinion

https://www.maine.gov/energy/heating-fuel-prices

Propane is about 25% less per gallon but propane contains about 40% less energy per gallon.

hot_rod

leonz said:

hot_rod said:

Some additional info. Compare fuel costs here.

https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

The EIA website has fuel costs for various areas of the country with data going back 20 years or more to get past fuel cost trends.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Bob, I could not get my coalpail fuel; comparison file to upload.

Keep trying, that link clicks through for me. Or just search Coalpail energy calculator.
Although it may not have your coal type option

MikeL_2

 Many gas boilers, and most gas furnaces can vent combustion gases directly outdoors via plastic piping.
 Most oil appliances require an atmospheric chimney......

Robert O'Brien

MikeL_2 said:

 Many gas boilers, and most gas furnaces can vent combustion gases directly outdoors via plastic piping.
 Most oil appliances require an atmospheric chimney......

The highest efficiency of each can sidewall vent with polypro, the standard of each can't.

JUGHNE

Having never been to Maine, is AC a requirement?

travler

We have a second home in South Portland, I had a new natural gas system installed about 3 years ago because we have a gas line running down our street. No such luck at the new/old place.

We would not be living there full time but need the option of going there in the winter.

I’m leaning toward LP as i just might install a back up LP fired generator.

Great information and opinions, thank you all

bburd

If you want to run your central heating from a generator, keep in mind that a forced air system requires much more electricity than hot water, due to the blower motor.

travler

In South Portland A/C is required in the summer if you want to be comfortable, as much as I don’t like them, window units get the job done. Mini splits are another option, installing an air handler and running duct work is not ( at least for me).

EBEBRATT-Ed

@WMno57

I don't believe there is an oil bias on this site. Quite the opposite. Back when I started 80% of New England was heated by oil and I was an oil guy. The rest was natural gas, wood, propane or electric.

About 1980 that all changed. Gas conversion burners were in short supply business was off the charts. with gas conversions. If you ordered a commercial burner like a Power Flame you could wait as much as 25 weeks for delivery instead of the normal 6-8 weeks. There were so many jobs to quote you couldn't quote them all. If you took a piece of pipe and drilled holes in it and called it a gas burner you could sell it.

This went on hot and heavy for 5-6 years and most any new building was gas.

I don't know the percentage of oil versus gas in new England now I would like to see those #s. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 70-80% gas now.

@travler

If your starting with a blank slate tighten the building envelope first. Whatever you install for heat you will be better off.

yesimon

Neither oil or propane are cheap in New England, so you should also consider electric heat pumps along with the incentives offered by Efficiency Maine. Also you can think about dual fuel (heat pump+gas) to optimize your long term running costs.

Hot_water_fan

I think it hinges on ductwork and AC. If you want AC anytime in the next few decades, this is your chance to do it right. Either fuel plays nicely with a heat pump and if you get quality ductwork, electricity usage for a blower is not all that high, so power outages can be handled by a generator.

MaxMercy

You have to compare fuel costs in YOUR area. Where I am, oil is cheaper per gallon than propane and since oil provides about 50% more BTU for each gallon, it was a no brainer for me to go to oil.

Someone in PA said they were paying less than a $1.50 (Dec 2023 as I post this) for propane while oil was over $3. Even with the lower BTU of propane, the half price made it worth it for propane. It was explained the difference was transportation costs in these various fuels, so you must check your prices in your area.

I'm assuming you're talking about propane because you mentioned truck delivery, but I want to add that with NG (we call it street gas as well), there is a *transportation* charge added every bill whether you use gas or not. In my commercial building which is on NG, I shut the boiler down completely in mid April and turn it on in November. I'm not using any NG at all for six months but pay almost $800 every year for transportation *including* months where I use no NG at all, so if you're talking about NG, then make sure you figure in transportation costs.

hot_rod

Heat, cool & DHW from an A2WHP.

https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/Idronics_27_NA_Air-to-water heat pump systems.pdf


https://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program/me

$100 discount for ECM in Maine. Attractive HP incentives.

SweatHog

I gotta say, I know @WMno57 sounds a little strident in his initial post but he's right about the hydronic biases on this site, the superiority of gas or propane over oil and the cost effectiveness of forced air vs. hydronics. And this is coming from a hydronics diehard.

Hot_water_fan

@SweatHog for sure! We may all love hydronics here but Americans don't seem nearly as enthusiastic. Gotta stay aware of what customers actually want.

ChrisJ

Hot_water_fan said:

@SweatHog for sure! We may all love hydronics here but Americans don't seem nearly as enthusiastic. Gotta stay aware of what customers actually want.

Fancy counter tops, stainless appliances, a shiny new SUV and truck in the driveway and the cheapest HVAC system you can hide in the basement and it doesn't matter if it works poorly as long as it works?

Hot_water_fan

Fancy counter tops, stainless appliances, a shiny new SUV and truck in the driveway and the cheapest HVAC system you can hide in the basement and it doesn't matter if it works poorly as long as it works?

I think opinions like these are a big part of the problem! Criticizing the choices everyday people make turns customers off. Americans like forced air! If that offends some of us, we need to get over that.

yesimon

They all come down to the same underlying reason: the cost of energy (as a percentage of income) is incredibly cheap in the USA. Meanwhile the average homeownership length is around 10 years. Energy efficiency improvements rarely pay for themselves during ownership period, especially when calculated at the time of purchase (forward-looking), without the benefit of hindsight.

bburd

ChrisJ said:

Fancy counter tops, stainless appliances, a shiny new SUV and truck in the driveway and the cheapest HVAC system you can hide in the basement and it doesn't matter if it works poorly as long as it works?

That is how most US speculative home builders approach HVAC these days, yes. They don't think a good system, which generally costs at least a bit more, is a selling point in the way that more visible "luxuries" are. And the fact that central AC is now standard in most US markets argues against hydronics.

Most buyers don't know the difference until they've moved in and it's too late. 

ChrisJ

bburd said:

ChrisJ said:

Fancy counter tops, stainless appliances, a shiny new SUV and truck in the driveway and the cheapest HVAC system you can hide in the basement and it doesn't matter if it works poorly as long as it works?

That is how most US speculative home builders approach HVAC these days, yes. They don't think a good system, which generally costs at least a bit more, is a selling point in the way that more visible "luxuries" are.

Most buyers don't know the difference until they've moved in and it's too late. 

I'm curious,
In response to the OP's question, what would you do if you were in their shoes in Maine?

Personally, I'm thinking cast iron radiators and a LPG fired modcon. But, I like cast iron and I think that's a personal preference type of thing.

It seems like A/C isn't needed there, even by my standards but I'm just going off of average temperatures online so I don't know what actually happens. They have a chance to insulate everything really well and really tighten the place up.

Hot_water_fan

That is how most US speculative home builders approach HVAC these days, yes. They don't think a good system, which generally costs at least a bit more, is a selling point in the way that more visible "luxuries" are. And the fact that central AC is now standard in most US markets argues against hydronics.

Most buyers don't know the difference until they've moved in and it's too late.

AC is in 90+% of US households if I recall correctly. But it's possible that a forced air system can be very comfortable, even more so than a hydronic system. This is also happening. The forced air option can in fact be a good, even luxury, system.

old_diy_guy

As far as the bias towards hydronics goes, I grew up in a steam heated house in Brooklyn, NY and when my wife and I were married, we bought a steam heated house in Queens, NY. When we moved to Southern New Jersey, we bought a house with forced air heat. I was originally suspicious of it, but I've come to appreciate the advantages. We now have central a/c, an electric air cleaner, air purification (Reme Halo), humidity control, zero temperature change from room to room. My wife appreciates not having "those old fashioned, bulky radiators", and I appreciate not having to go down the basement to check the water level every week. We have not noticed any drafts or noise from the forced air or any other disadvantages. If I live long enough to buy another house, it will not have a boiler.