Help with NG Steam furnace replacement 2000sq foot 1930 Dutch Colonial

clammy

Replace a boiler and leave it sitting on those crappy blocks ? The header piping is garbage I would guess you got what you paided for being I highly doubt any pro would have left that bull headed tee and would have done a real header instead of a slide in . To pipe it properly would have been way more money . I would hold the 50% until piped as in the manual plan and simple . The right contractor would have piped it as it should the wrong contractor well uses old crappy blocks leave the extras they’re doing nothing and pipes it wrong . I would image they will have every excise under the sun why it ok . It s your money and as u see not all pros are pro when it comes to making it happen correctly .
Peace and good luck clammy

brokenfurnace

I appreciate replies - But I will need to go back to owner - Please advise how I approach this with the owner What specifically makes this right? Thank you

realliveplumber

Rarely do people come here before the wrong boiler is installed and incorrectly piped. Its always after the fact when they are having all kinds of issues.

It's unbelievable that someone actually came here beforehand, got sound advice, for free, from multiple respected reputable experts, and then allowed the wrong boiler to be installed incorrectly, and now wants more advice.

You can not make this stuff up......

STEAM DOCTOR

brokenfurnace said:

I appreciate replies - But I will need to go back to owner - Please advise how I approach this with the owner What specifically makes this right? Thank you

Certainly not the most effective way to get the boiler pipe correctly. Meaning to have us tell you what needs to be done and then to have you tell the installer what needs to be done. I guess step one is you can have him open the manual and have him look at the diagram in the manual. Maybe one of the graphically inclined steam experts on this site, can make a diagram for your specific setup.

STEAM DOCTOR

If this was a few months earlier, I would tell you to read some of Dan Holohan's books and get yourself acquainted with steam. It's really not complicated and it's not rocket science. But you are sort of pressed for time. Maybe ask the installer if you would be willing to hop on this site, so that we can communicate directly with him. He really looks like he needs an awful lot of schooling in the art of steam.

ethicalpaul

The picture of how to do it is in the manual that ships with the boiler, on paper and everything. This isn’t even close, wow

ScottSecor

Admittedly, we do not pipe every new steam boiler perfectly. Sometimes when the old boilers fails on Christmas Eve, we re-use a fitting or two to get the heat going and to prevent freezing pipes. However, this only happens once in a blue moon. In these rare circumstances, we come back and make the required changes. Our goal on every steam replacement, is to at least follow the manufacturers installation instructions.

In your case the installer decided to skip opening the installation manual altogether. Based on the current weather conditions in mid October, I doubt this was an emergency install. Get the installer to at least follow page 17 of the current manual. If you have the funds, you might want to consider hiring a professional contractor off of this website and have them write up a report of the shortcomings

neilc

guys,
are we looking at another counterflow here?
are we seeing 2 drips, either side of the boiler riser?

Broken, do those mains pitch up as they leave the boiler?

all said, the lego job under the new boiler, not the best effort,
and installer needs to remove skim port, and install nipple and cap, minimum

brokenfurnace

Thank you for the replies

I will open page 17 and bring this to the attention of the owner

It was NOT an emergency install - but with cold weather looming I had 1. My orig heating guy who did yearly service in Sept tell me boiler leaking need a new boiler - he referenced "all this piping has to be redone" but no specifics - I find out a week later they no longer do boiler installs (small shop etc) - they referred me to 2nd Contractor - who came in and wanted to install heat pump but would do boiler install - Sent me estimate - no breakdown but a big final # 3rd Contractor my husband located - That is the one that did install - I printed out some of the diagrams that were posted here, went over w/owner - he sent me estimate and I agreed to same/like kind boiler replacement (pls save the told you so comments here) The owner sent heating guy and apprentice to remove old and install new -

Again I reference I am a nurse but I know my 1930 house very well and pay close attention to contractors doing work in my home

1. I referenced several times the flooring in the area was newish vinyl planks - expensive - and please be certain to protect floors
- they show up with not one drop cloth, or anything to protect flooring - so I am involved with using my plywood, my thick furniture moving blankets etc -
2. I say Please make sure you dispense the existing water in boiler - outside bilco doors to pachysandra - I see rusty deposits - on new flooring and say please do not wet this needs to be swept/vaccummed - Oh they dont have a shop vac "I'll bring one tomorrow"
3. There are more trips to/from plumbing supply house then I think is necessary - If you agreed to do this don't you show up with the basics? nope
4. I notice there is no new feeder valve with the new boiler - Old one is left hanging - so I contact owner and said - I assumed the feeder valve would be replaced right? - oh no, he thought it was "new from the flood" - The 'flood' was in 2005 and I have some PTSD about it because the feeder valve failed stayed open - He says he rarely replaces them and if he does it is usually related to "debris and the screen gets clogged on the units"
5. After day one - we have NO hot water (separate gas fired heater) I attempt to light the pilot at midnight w/o success - I call the installer 8A next day "Oh I lit that before I left, I'll be right there" - Shows up 1.5 hrs or so later -
No shop vac - more to/from plumbing supply - including 3rd trip to get the feeder valve that the did not show up with

Then Late in day I here sump pump going off and water trickling into sump - I say that is weird this pump never goes off - the guy says "oh, its been going all day, it must be ground water coming in or rain, I dont know" I look and say "no, its your hose in the pit draining" - He is not happy w/me he says "lady why don't you believe anything I say?"
Now I am concerned there could be collateral damage to the newish sump pump motor because I know it has been pumping rusty water

They are getting ready to leave and going over some of the install and I say - you know this is off center - tilting left - was as if he didn't notice until I pointed this out
I did request to put new boiler on blocks - and to change the old setup which was messy and had a block jutting out - which he did (I agreed to cutting floor & I would repair)

Obviously a lot of misses here - You guys have pointed out the larger mechanical ones - now I have to rectify with the owner - and Am I asking for him to redo this properly? I assume so - I think I would prefer the owner does it and not the heating guy he sent

Thanks for listening and for your help!

ChrisJ

@brokenfurnace


We gave you recommendations.
Even said we would calculate what size boiler was needed all you needed to do was supply pictures of the radiators.  All you needed to do was give us pictures.  

Best I can tell absolutely nothing we said was followed.  

Now you're exactly where you didn't want to be.  This was all easily fixed before.  Now there's a good chance it's either staying that way (broke) or going to court.  And we still have no idea if that's the right size boiler.  If it's the wrong size boiler it's even harder to get fixed.  

The rusty water won't harm the pump just run some clean water through it.  But I don't like him lying about it.



The argument about the skim port will be they aren't needed and they used a special chemical.   You'll find out that fun in 1-2 months.

STEAM DOCTOR

You owe the contractor half the money. Tell him to have a nice day and use that money to hire someone a competent steam person. He has no business working on steam. If you purchased a new car, that only got 10mpg, you would be entitled to take your money elsewhere. 

KC_Jones

@brokenfurnace I just want to let you know a few things.

First many of us are homeowners just like you. I am, @ChrisJ, and @ethicalpaul along with many others. I mention myself and the other two because all three of us have installed our own steam boilers. Yes we read a lot, yes this website helped. All three of us, as non professional homeowners installed our boilers significantly better than the professional you hired. This is why we get so infuriated.

You paid for a proper job you basically got nothing that was proper. As far as fixing, it’s a do over. The tee that the boiler riser is connected to actually shouldn’t even be there. Those mains should be brought down to the boiler header (which you don’t have) individually. It doesn’t matter how long that’s been there, the original boilers worked very differently than modern boilers and the piping needs to be done correctly to work with the modern boiler. Any professional that thinks otherwise should find a new trade or walk away from steam, seriously.

As said above, there is so much that needs fixed it’s hard to say where to start, other than rip out all the near boiler piping and start again.

I fear you have an uphill battle here, one question. Have you made final payment? If not there’s a chance, if you have the bill, I fear, is even steeper.

I noticed you mentioned something in a previous post about boiler sizing costing money, that shouldn’t be, it should be part of the job and it’s not hard.

I’ve sized multiple boilers to help others along, I’d say, including measurements and pictures it’s a 30-45 minutes process if the radiators are fairly typical. And half that we could have done for you remotely. It’s seriously not a hard thing, again that’s why I get so infuriated when a professional refuses to do it.

brokenfurnace

I am so grateful to ALL of you!!! -

I owe 1/2 of what agreed contract is -
I have not heard from the owner - But I am taking ALL of your professional insights to this contractor -
It is 1AM -
I just finished a 50 that is right fifty page paper for my masters program - I simply have Zero time for this but alias I will make time. It is infuriating honestly - but I am grateful to each of you - especially the one's that went easy on me - this is a daunting exercise and when you are a homeowner - you are placing your home repairs to what you believed to be was a reputable contractor - I just am beside myself -
I didn't realize it was so BAD that it literally is a do over -

Thank you !

STEAM DOCTOR

I would suggest calling Weil Mclain technical support. Try to see if they will back you on this one. Ask them if you can send pictures and have them approve or disapprove of the installation. This will give you leverage. 

KC_Jones

I took a look at your pictures and did a couple of crude markups showing what should be done. I did 2 different markups for clarity of each piece of the puzzle, but both pictures show the complete picture of what needs done. I tried doing a crude mark up on one and it was confusing.

Red is what needs to be taken out, blue is what needs to be put in. The drips on your mains need to be connected below the boiler water line. The piping arrangement is supposed to create separation between the mains to allow you to properly balance with venting. Also, with that tee there you have minimal if any slope for the condensate to properly drain. For your education the old boilers had huge steam chests to allow for separation of the steam and water, modern boilers do not have that and the separation happens in the piping on the boiler (which you don't have). This is why I commented about it not mattering what was there as the minute a modern style boiler is installed, it changes everything, as you can probably see by my mark ups.

As far as sizing the boiler, if you would like to go down that road let me know and I can explain what measurements are needed and pictures, and I'd be happy to run the calculations for you. I actually have a spreadsheet for doing this already because I got tired of doing the calcs over and over again. That boiler might be the right size, but if I was a betting man I'd always bet on it being oversized. Sizing, IMHO is a critical component for a system to run properly. It also seems to be one of the most overlooked aspects of these installs, as you encountered.

"noting if he installed a smaller model that could cause problems" I'm guessing they didn't explain the problems as they don't know what they are talking about. Honestly, that statement is fear mongering to prevent you from questioning them (which you always should) and they can avoid doing the work. Such a sad situation.

I feel so bad to see another homeowner going through this, if I lived closer I would happily come to your house to consult with you which I've done before.

If the owner doesn't see the err of their ways, please, please send them a link to this thread. I will not be attacking, and would be happy to help educate them if they are willing to learn. I just hope they don't say "I've been doing this for X years", that is the first indicator of a total hack in my world.

KC_Jones

STEAM DOCTOR said:

I would suggest calling Weil Mclain technical support. Try to see if they will back you on this one. Ask them if you can send pictures and have them approve or disapprove of the installation. This will give you leverage. 

We've seen that go sideways for the homeowner on here before, so while I agree with the concept I would not consider the manufacturer to be 100% on the side of the homeowner and contacting them could be a crap shoot.

KC_Jones

Hold on. I just looked at the pics again. I'm now not sure if this is a counterflow system. I zoomed in on one of the pictures and can clearly see another return connection and what appears to be a Hartford loop.

Disregard my second mark up as there may be more going on here than we can see. It could be a mix of parallel flow and counterflow, or a main that does both, several possibilities here.

We need to know if the mains, at the end, simply end, or if there is another pipe that turns down and returns back to the boiler. Pitch will need checked to see if those drips are even supposed to be here etc. This is why someone actually needs to know steam to do this work.

brokenfurnace

KC
Thank you - Do you need more pics to figure out counterflow system or not? If so what angle/s -

SteamDoctor - I did think of contacting WeilMcLain -

I feel like I am in a maze

I'm curious - did the old system have the same issues as the new? so this installer just repeated same?

Side note - despite all of this - we do have heat and no knocking
I do trust and appreciate all of the help here -

brokenfurnace

I just took more pics to see if this helps

pecmsg

Does this job require permits and an Inspection?

Contact your local building department.

Jamie Hall

At least you have heat. That's something. One of the more maddening oddities of steam heat is that sometimes a system which has really weird and terrible piping will work -- maybe not as well as it could, but it will work...

brokenfurnace

From Town Building Dept
Work Requiring a Permit

The following work requires a permit:
Any natural gas or propane work

Proverbial can of worms - the entire project

pecmsg

Then contact your building department. No permit was pulled, They can go after the contractor.
when talking to them show them this post. Most jurisdictions the installation and operation manual must be followed.

Grallert

So it should make heat so you're out of the woods for the time being. Not knowing what the contract looks like I would say you did not get what was agreed upon. Maybe you could concentrate on your studies for now, be relieved that you will have heat for the winter and approach the installer about a redo in the spring for the remainder of the agreed upon price. It's not an easy project but it's not that hard either and with the break and warmer weather and perhaps some learning on his part you'll get what you expected.
I wish you the best of luck

KC_Jones

brokenfurnace said:

KC
Thank you - Do you need more pics to figure out counterflow system or not? If so what angle/s -

SteamDoctor - I did think of contacting WeilMcLain -

I feel like I am in a maze

I'm curious - did the old system have the same issues as the new? so this installer just repeated same?

Side note - despite all of this - we do have heat and no knocking
I do trust and appreciate all of the help here -

Follow the steam mains until you get to the last radiator coming off them. Then does the main end with a cap, or does it turn down and head back to the boiler? The other "issue" determining what is actually needed relates to slope. Those drips are always required on counterflow, but not on parallel flow. That said, they don't hurt anything to keep them on a parallel flow system that I'm aware of.

The whole discussion relates to slope and which way the pipes are sloping. If I was there as a contractor or even just a consultant I would have to put a level on all the pipes around the basement to see how things are going to be able to determine what you have. This also allows me to find any potential problem areas that need a correction to the slope.

Counterflow the steam goes out to the system through the main, and condensate flows back to the boiler through that same main, the drip(s) gets the condensate back to the bottom of the boiler.

Parallel flow the steam goes out tot he system through the main, and the condensate then flows back to the boiler through an over head return, wet return, or combination of the two. In the picture you just posted there is an obvious wet return coming from somewhere, but since you appear to have 2 mains, it begs the question of if that return services both mains, or just one.

brokenfurnace

I am grateful for those that have followed this w/me and your professional opinions - this is so far out of my wheelhouse -
I plan to wait to hear from the owner - surprised he has been radio silent I will put forth what you have pointed out here and see what his response is - I'll hold out hope that he agrees and either has a steam expert that can do the redo - Or agrees that he does not have the capability - and I withhold the 50% of the balance to have this done by someone who has the expertise and willingness - I fear that most contractors steer clear of cleaning up someone else's poor install - because then we are involved in workmanship warranties etc...

Grallert - I think I needed that "permission" feels like a little hug - - We all need some help from places where we simply have no expertise - This is such a time/energy/psychological mind bender - I knew going in it was going to be a significant cost - and trust me I did not go with an unknown low ball estimate -this is a well established company - I just wonder with a lot of heating companies that have pivoted their business to alternative energy forms and lost the trade and craft of the good old fashion steam systems - that is what I suspect here

It sounds like - even if this drags on - that I am "safe" to use the system as is and not cave to any quick remedy

Have a great day -

mattmia2

It looks like there are returns under the slab that come back up at the boiler so look for pipes going in to the floor at the ends of the steam mains opposite the boiler.

EDIT: Looking more closely it might just be sitting on the floor.

ChrisJ

Did anyone notice what the water in the gauge glass looks like?

That skim port is going to be needed very soon.

WMno57

Are the prongs on the male plug electrical pigtail hanging off the boiler live? That was in both the before and after photos.

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

Are the prongs on the male plug electrical pigtail hanging off the boiler live? That was in both the before and after photos.

I assume / hope that's a female cord end. Some put a receptacle on the boiler, I guess this was their solution.

brokenfurnace

That is a transfer switch that was added (I believe after hurricane Sandy) to plug into power cord for generator - is live only when toggle switch is on - Hope that is OK - We have only used it once since Sandy I believe it was only used 1x - and was necessary because it was a power outage during cold weather - this hooks up to gas generator that we place outside - AWAY from house - Many in my area opted to go with whole house back up generators - many were propane based and got stuck when they needed them and were without propane - Oh the joys of homeownership - Maybe I'll put the for sale sign up and live off grid

ChrisJ

brokenfurnace said:

That is a transfer switch that was added (I believe after hurricane Sandy) to plug into power cord for generator - is live only when toggle switch is on - Hope that is OK - We have only used it once since Sandy I believe it was only used 1x - and was necessary because it was a power outage during cold weather - this hooks up to gas generator that we place outside - AWAY from house - Many in my area opted to go with whole house back up generators - many were propane based and got stuck when they needed them and were without propane - Oh the joys of homeownership - Maybe I'll put the for sale sign up and live off grid

It is a male plug..........

Honestly, I have no idea if that's ok by code. I'm guessing it's not energized and cannot be, but it seems.........shady?

@Jamie Hall Thoughts?

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

brokenfurnace said:

That is a transfer switch that was added (I believe after hurricane Sandy) to plug into power cord for generator - is live only when toggle switch is on - Hope that is OK - We have only used it once since Sandy I believe it was only used 1x - and was necessary because it was a power outage during cold weather - this hooks up to gas generator that we place outside - AWAY from house - Many in my area opted to go with whole house back up generators - many were propane based and got stuck when they needed them and were without propane - Oh the joys of homeownership - Maybe I'll put the for sale sign up and live off grid

It is a male plug..........

Honestly, I have no idea if that's ok by code. I'm guessing it's not energized and cannot be, but it seems.........shady?

@Jamie Hall Thoughts?

Not keen. A transfer switch can and should have a male plug with which the female socket of the portable cord for the generator -- if used -- mates. However, it should be hard mounted and shielded -- and, perhaps more important, the transfer switch should be rated and designed for that purpose (among other things, break before make DPDT) and clearly and unambiguously labelled.

The alternative, of course, is just to plug whatever you are using into the generator, having unplugged it from the wall socket it usually is plugged into. However, that's not an option for something like a boiler, which is hard wired.

pecmsg

brokenfurnace said:

That is a transfer switch that was added (I believe after hurricane Sandy) to plug into power cord for generator - is live only when toggle switch is on - Hope that is OK - We have only used it once since Sandy I believe it was only used 1x - and was necessary because it was a power outage during cold weather - this hooks up to gas generator that we place outside - AWAY from house - Many in my area opted to go with whole house back up generators - many were propane based and got stuck when they needed them and were without propane - Oh the joys of homeownership - Maybe I'll put the for sale sign up and live off grid

Where is this house. 

Maybe someone here is near by to get a clearer picture of what you have. 

WMno57

Probably not code. Is it OK? That depends on was it wired correctly the first time, and did the latest plumber rewire it correctly when he swapped the boiler. Both the hot and neutral must be switched. The switch should have a center off position. DPDT is Double Pole Double Throw. So UP should be utility power, Center should be off, Down should be Generator power. That should be labeled on switch cover plate. @brokenfurnace , your before photo shows the switch in the generator power position (if it really is a three position, center off, DPDT switch).
Exposed male prongs should never be live. That is obviously dangerous. Backfeeding generator power to the main panel and the rest of the house is also dangerous. Hence the need for a DPDT switch.
https://www.hubbell.com/wiringdevice-kellems/en/Products/Electrical-Electronic/Wiring-Devices/Electrical-Switches/Industrial-Series-Switches/Extra-Heavy-Duty-Industrial-Grade-Toggle-Switches-General-Purpose-AC-Double-Pole-Double-Throw-Center-Off-20A-120277V-AC-Toggle/p/1546130
There are several better ways to do this than a DPDT and dangling cord. Some of those ways would meet code, be safer for your family, easier to use in the chaotic circumstances of a power outage, and pass a future home inspection. I suggest you discuss this with an electrician.
Here is a picture of a shielded generator power inlet. This could be installed on the exterior of your home, so you would not have to run an extension cord through windows.

brokenfurnace

pecmsg- Im in Southern CT - tried early on to get someone on here - but closest was Ma -

I had a lot of difficulty locating a Steam boiler install contractor in my area -

WM - Thank you - and Yes I want Safety before anything in my home - that is what homeowners "believe" when the have licensed contractors doing work on their home - So I am adding this to my "list"

I did just speak to another heating Co that I found by happenstance - truck was at neighbors house and they did say they could help me out if/when I need. They do Steam! I also asked them if they would be willing to do a consult if needed to go back to the contractor that did do the work -

So much for a "day off" I think that doesn't exist

I appreciate your help!

ChrisJ

brokenfurnace said:

pecmsg- Im in Southern CT - tried early on to get someone on here - but closest was Ma -

I had a lot of difficulty locating a Steam boiler install contractor in my area -

WM - Thank you - and Yes I want Safety before anything in my home - that is what homeowners "believe" when the have licensed contractors doing work on their home - So I am adding this to my "list"

I did just speak to another heating Co that I found by happenstance - truck was at neighbors house and they did say they could help me out if/when I need. They do Steam! I also asked them if they would be willing to do a consult if needed to go back to the contractor that did do the work -

So much for a "day off" I think that doesn't exist

I appreciate your help!

Be warned.
Many say they do steam, but they really don't know what they're doing.

I wish I could tell you why but I honestly have no idea.

pecmsg

brokenfurnace said:

pecmsg- Im in Southern CT - tried early on to get someone on here - but closest was Ma - I had a lot of difficulty locating a Steam boiler install contractor in my area - WM - Thank you - and Yes I want Safety before anything in my home - that is what homeowners "believe" when the have licensed contractors doing work on their home - So I am adding this to my "list" I did just speak to another heating Co that I found by happenstance - truck was at neighbors house and they did say they could help me out if/when I need. They do Steam! I also asked them if they would be willing to do a consult if needed to go back to the contractor that did do the work - So much for a "day off" I think that doesn't exist I appreciate your help!

Zip code?

STEAM DOCTOR

brokenfurnace said:

pecmsg- Im in Southern CT - tried early on to get someone on here - but closest was Ma - I had a lot of difficulty locating a Steam boiler install contractor in my area - WM - Thank you - and Yes I want Safety before anything in my home - that is what homeowners "believe" when the have licensed contractors doing work on their home - So I am adding this to my "list" I did just speak to another heating Co that I found by happenstance - truck was at neighbors house and they did say they could help me out if/when I need. They do Steam! I also asked them if they would be willing to do a consult if needed to go back to the contractor that did do the work - So much for a "day off" I think that doesn't exist I appreciate your help!

Plucking a guy off the street is probably not the best way to spend your money.

Steamhead

STEAM DOCTOR said:

The piping stinks. Breaks about every piping rule. No header, colliding steam, bullhead T. This is not even minor league material. Looks like work done by a guy who has never piped a steam boiler before. Certainly don't give another cent. 

ChrisJ said:

 First, that's piped completely wrong.

 Second it doesn't have a skim port which you're going to be begging for in a month 


On October 2nd I said "DO NOT just wing it, and have any boiler installed improperly. You will be sorry and it will be very hard to fix after it's done."

Well, now you're in that position and there's no reason for it 

We also still have no idea if it's the right size.

Why?

This. For the record, the piping diagram is on page 17, here:

https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/EG PEG Series 6 Boiler Manual - Web Version.pdf

If the owner doesn't make this right, it might be lawyer time.