Help with NG Steam furnace replacement 2000sq foot 1930 Dutch Colonial

brokenfurnace

Newbie here - and a nurse by trade so well out of my scope of understanding (but I'm trying) - I have an older Weil McLain Boiler - pics enclosed - believed to be 30yrs or so old - We have serviced it yearly and it provides very comfortable heating. Yesterday was serviced by my local plumbing/heating Co and we did some investigating because end of last heating season the pilot was lighting - but continued clicking while furnace was already fired. - He noticed some efflorescence under boiler (on slab) and then found some rust and seeping water - I need to replace this and I am clueless on what to replace this with - I did locate what I believe to be same/like/kind WEIL-MCLAIN PEG-45, 150 MBH Steam Gas Boiler https://www.wallingtonplumbingsupply.com/weil-mclain-119454330-peg-45-pidn-150-000-btu-steam-spark-ingintion.html - But wanted to post here to see if there are other options that may be better suited in our application



Overall we have been pleased with this boiler WITH the exception of a failure of the transformer feeder valve that opened and Stayed OPEN - causing all the Rads to fill with water and causing flooding - out of the relief valves on the Rads (that is another story) 2005.

I know very little on this subject - but do know that this is a non condensing type boiler that reported has 83% AFUE - I am best going same/like/kind or are there other options and if so what is the ROI (if higher cost) and how long before I realize the ROI -

House is roughly 2,000 sq feet 1930 Dutch Colonial - Plaster walls - "some insulation" i.e. Kitchen/bath Reno - Attic has floor insulation - Triple track storm windows on original windows - 2 Exterior Doors (original wood w/storm) - Total # windows 28 (4 of which are newer Marvin) windows roughly 30"x50"

Not sure this is relevant (except to my purse) new roof is going on next week - and installing a Ridge vent (current gabled vents) -

I just reviewed utility bills from natural Gas Oct 2022- May 2023 roughly $1900 -This Includes Range And Hot water heater -

I appreciate any assistance - Thank you!

Hot_water_fan

I know very little on this subject - but do know that this is a non condensing type boiler that reported has 83% AFUE - I am best going same/like/kind or are there other options and if so what is the ROI (if higher cost) and how long before I realize the ROI - 

Steam boilers don’t get any more efficient then what you have. It seems large for that usage. Do you have AC? 

Steamhead

@brokenfurnace , the installer is just as important as the boiler. Where are you located? We might know someone who can help.

And don't even think about tearing out the steam system. No forced-air or heat pump system will ever provide as much comfort.

brokenfurnace

I appreciate the replies

Yes central AC installed 2012
I am not interested in FA - Hate, hate, Loathe - Love my NG steam and the "honking" Rads that provide even heat -

So shall I replace with Same/like Kind Weil McLain?

Jamie Hall

brokenfurnace said:

I appreciate the replies

Yes central AC installed 2012
I am not interested in FA - Hate, hate, Loathe - Love my NG steam and the "honking" Rads that provide even heat -

So shall I replace with Same/like Kind Weil McLain?

Yes, replace, but not neessarily the same although that would work. You might be better served to determine how big a boiler you really need -- a good steam pro. can help you with that, and so can we, although not as accurately.

STEAM DOCTOR

There is only one way to size a steam boiler. Measure radiators and determine heat output of radiators. Boiler heat output needs to match radiator heat output (there are few different schools of thought on some details, i.e. pickup factor..). The most important consideration, is the competency of the installer. There is zero relevant differences in efficiencies, from one boiler to another.

brokenfurnace

Thank you I am on here https://www.usboiler.net/sizing-steam-boiler.html#:~:text=Unlike a hot water boiler,the connected load (radiation).
Trying to figure out this equation

Ironman

What’s your location and can you take some pics from a little further back that show the steam piping above the boiler?

mattmia2

From what I can see from the picture, though I can't see all of it, it looks like the near boiler piping is very wrong and that is very important to the system being quiet, even, and efficient.

mattmia2

BTW, the test to see if there is a leak above the water line is to fill the boiler up until the water is in to the riser coming out of the boiler, sort of like your auto feeder stuck on situation but just until it is above the top of the boiler and see if it leaks out somewhere. If that is the source of your ignition problem there will be enough of a leak to see water underneath somewhere.

ChrisJ

Yes, please forget forced air.

Do a survey and see how much radiation you have. Also, how is that 2000sqft house insulated? Good? Bad? Terrible?

The piping is very wrong and will need to be fixed with the new boiler. But, the smaller the boiler you can use, the better.

brokenfurnace

Thank you all for your insights - All new territory for me

I will take more pics of the upper steam pipes

I have NO interest in changing the heating system - It WILL remain steam - I do not need convincing on this -
I came across this yesterday - This Old House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFLPhENA24E

According to TOH - the steam boiler should NEVER need water (after initial fill) - should be 1/2 full all the time due to the combustion and steam/condensate return - seemed to be not a fan of an auto feeder valve as well. What are the thoughts on this?

I have not received estimate/recommendation from my plumber yet - He did say "all this piping has to change" - but no specifics - so perhaps he is seeing what some of you have mentioned above.

Curious if any of you are willing to venture a price point that I am in on this replacement - is this $5k-$8k which is my "educated guess" -

I'll post more pics next post

Thank you!

mattmia2

No pricing of services or equipment provided by contractors is allowed here.

A steam boiler will lose some water because it is not a sealed system, when the system vents air at the start of each cycle a little bit of water is lost but it should be maybe a couple gallons or less a month. A lot of fresh water will kill a boiler.

Auto feeders or not is something you could spend months on.

clammy

When getting a new steam boiler installed be sure the installers re do that header it’s really not piped correctly and as much as you think you boiler is function to the best of it ability piped in the manner it is it’s not really producing dry steam and it’s really not piped as the manufacture suggests . That boiler at a min should have a 3 inch header for the production of dry steam and the system connection and equalizer is not correct even if your main is counter flow . Your idea of a replacement price is way off base try 2 to 3 times that estimate for a properly installed and skimmed cleaned boiler . At that price the guy would have to be there about 2 hours at most to be able make just about zip unless you get unlicensed unskilled workers who are not going to pipe it properly and don’t mind working for nothing and possibly not pay there supply house bill . Peace and good luck
The sweetening of a cheaper price is often forgetter after the bitterness of poor quality .
Peace and good luck Clammy

ChrisJ

I add water a few times a winter.  If it's really cold,  -8 to 10 degrees all week I'll be adding once a week.  If it's mild, once a month.   By adding I mean 1/2" in the gauge glass.


We aren't allowed to talk pricing and I'm not a contractor but I think you're low.  

brokenfurnace

HOping this is what Others have requested - the Gas Feed from exterior to inside basement wall looks a little sketchy to me - I do not know about what others referenced related to the rest of the feeds - but hoping you can help me figure this out

Thank you!

Ironman

It it looks like you may have a counterflow system in which the condensate flows counter to the steam and returns to the boiler through drip lines.

The steam main coming up from the boiler and going into the bull of the Tee is wrong.

Here’s what it should be like:

CLamb

brokenfurnace said:

I came across this yesterday - This Old House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFLPhENA24E

How did he tell if the vents were working or not without the boiler steaming?

brokenfurnace

Ironman
Thank you for pointing this out - again, I am in a space I have no expertise at all -
So what I am gathering is that I may need a smaller furnace (dependent on calculations of existing Rads) and will need the piping coming out of the boiler will need to be replaced - (all I hear is $$) but want to get it right because I doubt I will be going through this again in my lifetime

Clamb- I have no clue how except he didn't see any evidence?

Valves on all rads vent and valves were replaced 2006

Thank you!

brokenfurnace

Just found out that my plumbing/heating Co does not do new installs
Looking for good reference in Southwestern CT - Can anyone direct me?

ChrisJ

@broken_furnace You disagree how often I add water? That seems a bit strange.

@Charlie from wmass Do you do CT?

New England SteamWorks

I'd go with the same boiler model, but I am almost certain the 45 is too big for you. Your radiators will need to be measured, but I'd guess more like a 35. Make sure they use a 2" riser, eliminate the bullhead tee in the steam mains, and remove the drip connection that is above the waterline to below:

ScottSecor

@New England SteamWorks I think you meant "Use a three inch riser."

ChrisJ

ScottSecor said:

@New England SteamWorks I think you meant "Use a three inch riser."

He may have.
Although on my what was originally an EG-45, I used two 2" risers into a 3" header.
On an EG-35 or 40 honestly, even that is overkill, by a lot. I can run my water almost at the top of the gauge glass and not have carry over.

This became even more true when I converted it to an EG-40.

If I had to redo mine, I'd go with a single 3" into a 3" header but I have a feeling a single 2" would do just fine. I don't remember what the manual says.

New England SteamWorks

Two 2" risers, per the diagram, more than sufficient for an EG35.

ChrisJ

@New England SteamWorks I really like that picture. Did you make that?

New England SteamWorks

Yes, it's from our website.

CLamb

@New England SteamWorks I like it too. Lovely diagram.

brokenfurnace

I appreciate all the comments and help - I located 2 installers and may just swap out the Eg 45 for same/like kind - we really did not have issues with the system - no knocks, tapping and provided even temps - It seems that measuring all the rads is another $1k cost? I am a bit overwhelmed with all the incoming information and trying to locate a solid/reputable installer - first guy was in my basement 5 minutes trying to have me convert to heat pump and how I would "save money" - I had no idea how difficult this would be but I am inching closer - I saved NE steam works diagram above and will go over this with the installer Thank you! So if I go with the Eg 45 w/o measurements and it is too large - the downside is ineffective in the sense I will be paying more for natural Gas? Thank you!

dabrakeman

Not hard to get a reasonably accurate sanity check yourself on your total connected sqft radiation. Attached here is one of many sheets you can use. Match up the type of radiator you have to the type on the sheet and then just measure the overall height of the radiator and count the number of sections. Get a SQFT EDR for that radiator. Do for all the radiators and get a total sqft for the entire system. Don't worry about doing any BTU conversions. Not necessary. You want the total sqft from all the radiators to match closely with the rated SQFT steam for the boiler. EG-35 is 238sqft, EG-40 is 321 and EG-45 is 388.

If you have a weird radiator that does not seem to fit any of the styles on the sheet there are multitudes of people here that can help save you a grand.

STEAM DOCTOR

brokenfurnace said:

I appreciate all the comments and help - I located 2 installers and may just swap out the Eg 45 for same/like kind - we really did not have issues with the system - no knocks, tapping and provided even temps - It seems that measuring all the rads is another $1k cost? I am a bit overwhelmed with all the incoming information and trying to locate a solid/reputable installer - first guy was in my basement 5 minutes trying to have me convert to heat pump and how I would "save money" - I had no idea how difficult this would be but I am inching closer - I saved NE steam works diagram above and will go over this with the installer Thank you! So if I go with the Eg 45 w/o measurements and it is too large - the downside is ineffective in the sense I will be paying more for natural Gas? Thank you!

You don't want to drive a car that's been getting 10MPG. Even if that's what you have been doing for the last 20 or 30 years. Any installer who just wants to do a straight swap, without measuring radiation, is a minor leaguer at best. 

jesmed1

dabrakeman said:

Not hard to get a reasonably accurate sanity check yourself on your total connected sqft radiation. Attached here is one of many sheets you can use. Match up the type of radiator you have to the type on the sheet and then just measure the overall height of the radiator and count the number of sections. Get a SQFT EDR for that radiator. Do for all the radiators and get a total sqft for the entire system. Don't worry about doing any BTU conversions. Not necessary. You want the total sqft from all the radiators to match closely with the rated SQFT steam for the boiler. EG-35 is 238sqft, EG-40 is 321 and EG-45 is 388.

I'm going to guess that your existing boiler has 2x or more the BTU/hr output than you need. I'm in a 100-year-old 4-unit condo building near Boston, with two oil-burning hot water boilers and cast iron radiators. For our 4800 sq ft of living space, the installed radiator capacity in the entire building is about 88,000 BTU/hr at 140 degree water temp. This coincides quite closely with our total building heat loss, also about 88,000 BTU/hr at zero degrees design temp.

However, the last guys to install boilers installed 350,000 BTU total heating capacity. Massive overkill. Even if they didn't want to calculate the building's heat load, they could just have measured up the radiators and gotten more accurate sizing for the boilers.

Save yourself from letting the installers make a sizing mistake. Do the radiator sizing yourself as dabrakeman said.

STEAM DOCTOR

brokenfurnace said:

I appreciate all the comments and help - I located 2 installers and may just swap out the Eg 45 for same/like kind - we really did not have issues with the system - no knocks, tapping and provided even temps - It seems that measuring all the rads is another $1k cost? I am a bit overwhelmed with all the incoming information and trying to locate a solid/reputable installer - first guy was in my basement 5 minutes trying to have me convert to heat pump and how I would "save money" - I had no idea how difficult this would be but I am inching closer - I saved NE steam works diagram above and will go over this with the installer Thank you! So if I go with the Eg 45 w/o measurements and it is too large - the downside is ineffective in the sense I will be paying more for natural Gas? Thank you!

There is more involved then just which boiler to choose. The best car will not drive properly, if you put the tires on backwards. Same applies to your boiler. 

ChrisJ

Take pictures of every radiator and post them here.  We'll get you close

The Steam Whisperer

There is actually a more efficient steam boiler available than that design. A more efficient design is a gas power burner design. This is not a bleeding edge design, but interestingly, predates your current boiler design by over 100 years. I am installing Peerless brand EC model in my home right now fired with a little power burner ( about 65,000 to 75,000 btu/hr gas input). I will be heating slightly more space than your home, but we have upgraded insulation and air tightening in this 1903 home in Chicago ( our heating system design temperature is about 0F, with records around -25F). The first step, like everyone else has stated, is getting the right size boiler. If you have one pipe steam, then the boiler needs to be matched to the radiator capacity plus a "pickup and piping factor" for safe sizing. You can go smaller, but this takes alot of balancing work to get the system to work well. If you have two pipe steam the system can probably be easily modified to match the current heat loss of the house, which almost always results in a replacement boiler about 1/2 the size as one sized the to current radiators plus the "factor".

brokenfurnace

I printed a lot of the references and comments out - I have an installer coming today - I really appreciate the help here!!! - I will update once the installer gives his opinion

THANK YOU!!

ChrisJ

brokenfurnace said:

I printed a lot of the references and comments out - I have an installer coming today - I really appreciate the help here!!! - I will update once the installer gives his opinion

THANK YOU!!

DO NOT have an oversized boiler installed.

DO NOT just wing it, and have any boiler installed improperly. You will be sorry and it will be very hard to fix after it's done.


The sizing is important.
The piping is extremely important and your current one is wrong. I think. I actually can't tell because the picture cuts the piping off at the top.

I can say that boiler should've had a nipple installed in the skim port and not a plug.

KC_Jones

brokenfurnace said:

I appreciate all the comments and help - I located 2 installers and may just swap out the Eg 45 for same/like kind - we really did not have issues with the system - no knocks, tapping and provided even temps - It seems that measuring all the rads is another $1k cost? I am a bit overwhelmed with all the incoming information and trying to locate a solid/reputable installer - first guy was in my basement 5 minutes trying to have me convert to heat pump and how I would "save money" - I had no idea how difficult this would be but I am inching closer - I saved NE steam works diagram above and will go over this with the installer Thank you! So if I go with the Eg 45 w/o measurements and it is too large - the downside is ineffective in the sense I will be paying more for natural Gas? Thank you!

It should not cost one extra penny for the contractor to measure and properly size the boiler, it's literally their job. If any person flat out said "I'm not going to do my job", would you accept that?

All that said, yeah it seems many contractors don't know, or just refuse to do it. As stated above with a few pictures and some measurements we could walk you through it.

Honestly with all the basic measurements and pictures I'd be willing to run the numbers for you, it's not a difficult task.

brokenfurnace

Update -
We went with same/like kind - I appreciate all of the sage advice on measuring sq ft of existing rads - the convergence of a Trifecta of sorts of merging of a plethora of home repairs/projects, full time work, full time school, and managing a family has me overwhelmed - Ok I'm typically not one to sound like Charlie Brown's teacher - When the 2nd heating contractor came out, he did walk the interior of the home, asked if there were any problems with the old system - which there weren't (outside of the feeder valve/flood failure 2005) - so he suggested same/like/kind - noting if he installed a smaller model that could cause problems - Here are pics of install - I am not stating anything here because I would like to hear from all of you - I'll give you my version later so I don't taint the well - I owe the contractor 1/2 of the total balance and he has not asked yet. I also included some of the pics from the old boiler - Thank you for your comments

STEAM DOCTOR

The piping stinks. Breaks about every piping rule. No header, colliding steam, bullhead T. This is not even minor league material. Looks like work done by a guy who has never piped a steam boiler before. Certainly don't give another cent. 

ChrisJ

 First, that's piped completely wrong.

 Second it doesn't have a skim port which you're going to be begging for in a month 


On October 2nd I said "DO NOT just wing it, and have any boiler installed improperly. You will be sorry and it will be very hard to fix after it's done."

Well, now you're in that position and there's no reason for it 

We also still have no idea if it's the right size.

Why?