UP Michigan Community Gem Needs Help

dabrakeman

There is a nice historic theater in the UP of Michigan in Calumet that had its boiler go out a couple years ago. A temporary forced air system was installed soon after the failure that nobody is happy with and these folks realize that the steam heat is optimal for the theater. To give some background I have attached a link to a recent news story video https://uppermichiganssource.com/2023/08/29/village-calumet-calumet-theatre-company-use-preservation-grant-rehabilitate-theater-heating/

In the video you will see an outside picture of the theater. It is actually divided into two parts with everything to the left of the tower being considered "the village" side. This side contains the ballroom and some offices. Everything to the right is the "theater". The boiler that failed was just servicing the "theater" side. That appears to be the intent going forward with separate plans to follow to restore a separate system to the village side. However, the boiler that failed is a WM LGB-9 rated at 2633sqft steam. When I was up there last Spring I went around and did a quick assessment of connected radiation and could only come up with 1211sqft. Thought is that at one time a boiler of this size probably served the entire complex and was just replaced with the same size unit when the systems were split...

I have no direct responsibilities with regards to this theater other than a love of the area and a desire to see them revitalize the system in a successful manner. So, I have been trying to help support Dan (the Theater President) as I can. Getting the true expertise up to this area of the country is obviously the biggest challenge here for the project. I have suggested that perhaps getting a consultant may be the best approach to mitigate risk of eventually having to have the work done by someone maybe not so versed in steam. This would have been best before sending out bid requests and evaluating bids but requests for bids are already going out.

Thus the real purpose of this posts is to see if anyone out there has any ideas of how to get some expertise up there or if they know of any potential contractors worth contacting. We are all aware there is nobody listed in the "Find a Contractor" anywhere near this area.

Jamie Hall

I think @Steamhead or @Gordo has been known in the past to take on a consulting gig. Might ask them.

Mad Dog_2

Awesome..Is that near the lovely town of  Charlevoix Michigan?  If I could break free from the Big City here, I'd take a road trip with my Boys.  Thats an exciting endeavor.  I'll be cheering you on from here in NYC.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Hiring The sharpest tack in the drawer, Frank Steamhead Wilsey and the Great Gordo would behoove you'll.  When a Professional consultant comes in, we are going to give you economic options, direction, and help you avoid the pitfalls of bad and incompetent contractors.  Its the best investment you could make on this rehab and money 💰 😉 well spent!  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Thats a Gorgeous theater and Village.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

6 Hours Northwest of Charlevoix...Boy, the Upper Peninsula is massive.  Mad dog 🐕 

dabrakeman

Mad Dog_2 said:

Awesome..Is that near the lovely town of  Charlevoix Michigan?  If I could break free from the Big City here, I'd take a road trip with my Boys.  Thats an exciting endeavor.  I'll be cheering you on from here in NYC.  Mad Dog 🐕 

It is further up in God's country than Charlevoix. Charlevoix is in the lower peninsula on Lake Michigan. This is up in Calumet in the upper peninsula. If you look at a map you will see a finger of land (the Keweenaw peninsula) sticking up into the middle of Lake Superior. That is where this is at. Pretty awesome place to be in the Fall.

dabrakeman

Mad Dog_2 said:

Hiring The sharpest tack in the drawer, Frank Steamhead Wilsey and the Great Gordo would behoove you'll.  When a Professional consultant comes in, we are going to give you economic options, direction, and help you avoid the pitfalls of bad and incompetent contractors.  Its the best investment you could make on this rehab and money 💰 😉 well spent!  Mad Dog 🐕 

Direct flights on United from Chicago to Houghton County Airport in Hancock, MI just 10 minutes from the theater.

dabrakeman

@Jamie you mentioned in a discussion about14years ago a plenum return under the floor in a theater in Manistee, MI (Vogue). The theater in Calumet may have something similar. This would be in conjunction with huge banks of radiators located back stage? The photo here is horrible (need to zoom and brighten) but there appears to be at least 30 wall units on each side of the back stage and a long continuous loop in the middle of the backstage. I did not have time to measure everything out precisely when I was briefly there this spring but the backstage EDR alone would be roughly 425sqft in my estimation based on about 50 of those wall units at 7sqft each and approximately 150ft of 1 1/2" OD diameter straight pipe in the loop.

I have posted a few pictures below just to provide a better jist of what is there:

Jamie Hall

Very likely -- having a basically open plenum for return was quite common You should find small vents -- often vaguely like demented mushrooms -- under the seating if that's the case.

Those wall radiators in the backstage area are vital -- you need all the radiation back there you can get your hands on (I assume there is a fly loft over/) as the stage can get remarkably chilly, and the folks on stage are depending on that radiation to stay vaguely warm -- as the convected hot air goes up into the fly space.

Steamhead

Looks like a mix of pipe coils, wall radiators and column radiators.

The theater itself is a beauty!

Mad Dog_2

The Theaters of that era were works of art. I believe the big movie studios footed alot of that bill.  There are still many Gems in NYC.  Many of them have become Gospel Churches so atleast they are being enjoyed.  The Valencia Theater in Jamaica Queens comes to mind.  Mad Dog 🐕 

dabrakeman

Question.  I know that to calculate the square foot radiation per foot of straight pipe is (pi*actual diameter in inches*12)/144.  However, if there are blower fans behind those pipes such to blow warm air into a space is the EDR of the pipe calculated any different for system sizing purposes?

mattmia2

Forced convection will increase the EDR. Trying to figure out how much could be challenging in a field built assembly like that.

mattmia2

Any chance there are old engineering drawings still around from when it was built?

dabrakeman

Doesn't appear to be any original records we can find.  I will be out there either tomorrow or sometime this weekend and will take some pictures.  Just didn't know if anyone had run into this when trying to size a boiler for a more commercial type application.  Trick certainly is going to be how much additional percentage to add?

dabrakeman

Will be at the theater this afternoon and will provide pictures.  No further input on sizing considerations to account for forced convection??

dabrakeman

Looks like they tapped into the steam supply and brought it right into a Carrier air handler as a single coil.  Could probably get the cfm of the air handler and input temperature but still some missing variables to get a btuh.

dabrakeman

This convective blower unit is underneath the theater floor back towards the entrance to the theater. Got to work through which the warm air is blown runs all the way down to what most of us would call the orchestra pit area which apparently had a tendency to get a bit cold and is below the boiler water line.  I have no idea what the blue box is on top of the supply line in the third picture??

Steamhead

That blue box is a zone valve. One of the thermostats likely operates it.

dabrakeman

@Steamhead Thanks!  That makes sense.  I was a little surprised how much the piping throttled down going into it.  Leaves the supply about the same as it enters the handler...

dabrakeman

Well I have gone around and totaled up every darn radiator and backstage loop that this boiler is going to service excluding this connector setup and come up with a total for spot on with. WM Lgb-6.  There is a lgb-9 in there right now and I heard one contractor wanted to up it a size from that.  Kind of explains why patrons in the ticket lobby were getting spit on by hot water escaping the radiator vents when the system was last running 3 years ago.

The convective blower system services a <30x20 dressing room with a low 7.5' ceiling and blows air into the area between row 1 and the stage.  A lgb-7 would provide 328 additional sqft capacity which would seem enough to heat those areas if heated by conventional radiant means so that would be my recommendation lest anyone has further insight.

mattmia2

Carrier should be able to tell you what that fancoil consumes, the factor designed that, they know what it was designed to output. If there is a BTU rating on it you can convert that to square ft of EDR.

The CI radiators with forced convection over them (if I am interpreting your description correctly), you will have to see if @Steamhead or @retiredguy or @New England SteamWorks or maybe @clammy know how to estimate their output.

dabrakeman

There are no standing radiators or such with forced convection. I originally was just going by what I was being verbally told before I had seen what was there.  Just the Carrier unit and I had the same recommendation that they try to find out who did the installation 10 or 15 years ago and see if those records exist.

I took the photo that shows the unit is a 39LB series and the steam coil is  28LZ4106FC3086-L. I thought maybe I could find a BTUh online but can't.  I'm just not sure what number to call?

dabrakeman

Resurrecting this just to ask the question whether deciphering the btuh of this steam coil system should be asked under a different category of The Wall?
Should all the pertinent information be contained within the Carrier Unit# and The steam coil# (per earlier plate picture above) or would there be other information required?

mattmia2

Here are the instructions for it. It tells you about the steam coil but doesn't give output at various steam temps.
https://www.shareddocs.com/hvac/docs/1005/Public/06/39L-7SI.pdf

dko

That's here
https://www.shareddocs.com/hvac/docs/1005/Public/03/39L-8PD.pdf

Its a 1994 unit according to the serial, but the model nomenclature doesn't entirely work. the docs are probably for newer units.
no idea what that misc unit option is

called carrier? if they still have info on it

dabrakeman

Appreciate the inputs.
The pertinent information I can get from the Unit# in the -7SI document is that it is a unit size 10.
From the coil #from figure 6 of the same document it suggests 12 tubes in face and 6 fins per inch.

On page 31 of the -8PD document under physical data of coils the table suggests to me that the coil for a unit 39L size 10 would have a face area of 7.53sqft but it should only have 8 tubes per face, not 12 as 06 in the model number suggested (same info on page 11 of -7SI document). So I am confused as to what face area this coil really has?? Looking at the photo I took and posted earlier here it doesn't look like 12 tubes to me...

Once know the actual face area the next roadblock (for me) is figuring out what the airflow (CFM) would be in order to get a face velocity.

Attached is a third document I found yesterday that has some different information but still doesn't

EBEBRATT-Ed

Sens a picture with thw name plate to Carrier they should be able to send you the information on the coil heating capacity

dabrakeman

Of course maybe 06 means 6 tubes in face but it still isn't 8...

dabrakeman

Recommendation from Carrier is about 220mbh! Says it could be between 180-240 based on setup. This seemed to be based totally off the unit #. He was able to find a 1997 manual for reference. Guess I will go with that.

I had 1702sqft connected radiation without the steam coil system. Is it correct to say the 220000btuh steam coil equates to an edr of 917sqft and that the boiler rated edr should now be in the area of 2619sqft? This would land us back at a LGB-9?

dabrakeman

Noticed in the WM manual that the LGB4 - LGB-8 call for a single 4" riser into a 4" header. Double risers do not seem to be indicated until get up to a LGB-14. Is there a reason other than cost why for instance dual 3" risers would not be listed as an option for say the LGB7 boiler still going into a 4" header? Didn't know if I was missing something with the larger boilers since the dual riser options seem prevalent in the WM manuals for smaller boilers.

WMno57

WM eliminated the second tapping on some of their boilers. Then they brought it back on some, not others. The manual might be written assuming only one tapping.
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/167900/weil-mclain-flipped-us-the-bird
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/188514/rehashing-the-old-williamson-vs-weil-mclain-comparison-and-new-boiler-specs

mattmia2

I wouldn't make the risers smaller if you go to 2. The risers slowing down the velocity of the steam so that the water can drop out is how most of the water gets separated out of the steam. The bigger riser slows the velocity more. If the area of the 2 risers is the same or more than the single specified riser you could get away with it if everything else is right, but the size and height of the riser is the most important factor in making sure the boiler makes dry steam.

dabrakeman

I put the question out to WM and will see if I hear back.

In this 1972sqft example boiler for the single 4" riser I calculate a steam velocity of 55ft/s. For two 3" risers I calculate 48ft/s. For two 4" risers I get 28ft/s.

If there is indeed only one tapping on the WM LGB-7 I assume it would be a 4" tapping? If so then 55ft/s is as slow as could go. Is that still OK?

dabrakeman

Above numbers @ 0psi. Would you typically use 1 or 2psi?

WMno57

Upon further research: The discussion links I posted were for EGB series boilers. LGBs are very different. So I retract my theory about the manual being written to accommodate single tapping production.
Brochure showing large single riser configurations:
https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/BRO_027_LGB_WM1512_web.pdf

dabrakeman

Ah! I had been looking at the LGB series 3 rather than the series 2. Both from the brochures appear to have two 6" supply tappings. So, that shouldn't be a limitation depending upon what folks think the target velocity should be?

Did notice that the WM LGB's are side tapped supplies? Are there other boilers that you would recommend in the 1750sqft range?

dabrakeman

...and what about lgb series 2 vs series 3?

dabrakeman

LGB series 3 is a SS exchanger high efficiency boiler. I am thinking longevity would be more the desire here so maybe should just eliminate that any any other options like it. Stick with cast iron?

Many of the previous discussions on boiler manufacturers and quality etc... seem to have been focused more on the residential boiler lines. When getting into light commercial might the comparisons be any different? In the size range we are looking at seems options could include:

1) WM LGB-7 series 2
2) Peerless CC-05
3) Smith 19HE-5
4) Burnham V905A

Any thoughts and insights from the experts on the comparatives between these?

Got word that WM is planning a rather large price increase after March of this year. 30% range. Don't know about the others but this is spurring at least purchasing the boiler yet this winter.

dabrakeman

An update here is that the steam coil system is being removed so it is not part of the final sizing equation anymore. 1702sqft is the measured connected radiation for rest of system.

I had scattered a number of questions in the posts above so will list out the most pertinent ones I have here :

1) What should the target riser steam velocity range be? As mentioned with the WM 1936sqft lgb-7 series 2 boiler minimum recommended single 4" riser I get 54ft/s.

2) A L-H-L gas valve setup appears to be optional. "LOW-HIGH-LOW FIRING: LGB 6-23 boilers can provide low-high-low firing with the addition of a water temperature or steam pressure control"
Would there be benefits of this added pressure control particularly in a theater where the expectation would be for a lot of setback and recoveries?