Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Moline Steam System - Update

Options
Ironman
Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
edited September 2023 in THE MAIN WALL
Anyone know if Moline radiator supply valves can still be obtained or any alternatives?
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.

Comments

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,911
    Options
    Why does it have to be Moline?
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,840
    Options
    You could replace it with a regular steam valve and an orifice plate if you can't clean up the old valve.
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,197
    Options
    Tunstall will make anything if you can get them a sample. Send pics please..Mad Dog 🐕 
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,197
    Options
    For a regular Right Angle shutoff, I think Hoffman is the Highest Qaulity.  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,942
    Options
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Ironman
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,840
    Options
    pecmsg said:

    Why does it have to be Moline?

    It is a metering type vapor valve, right?
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    mattmia2 said:
    Why does it have to be Moline?
    It is a metering type vapor valve, right?
    Yes.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options

    A little info about the job:

    The house was built in the 1890’s and has been owned by the late Mary Kay (cosmetic fame) and presently by her daughter since the 1950’s. I’m not sure if the system is original.

    I got my first look at it yesterday and it’s been knuckleheaded over the years. Some of the Moline valves have been replaced standard ones, traps and air vents installed, etc.

    I’ll post more info after I evaluate it more thoroughly in a couple of weeks.

    Any helpful advice is greatly appreciated.


    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    mattmia2Mad Dog_2
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,942
    edited August 2023
    Options
    @Ironman , if all the rads look like the one in the second pic, it's not original. That type of rad came out about 1925. Before that they would have used column-type rads like the American Peerless or Rococo.

    If the house originally had one-pipe steam, it's possible the Moline was retrofitted.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Mad Dog_2Ironman
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,197
    Options
    STEAMHEAD = HEATING SAVANT .  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    Steamhead said:
    @Ironman , if all the rads look like the one in the second pic, it's not original. That type of rad came out about 1925. Before that they would have used column-type rads like the American Peerless or Rococo. If the house originally had one-pipe steam, it's possible the Moline was retrofitted.
    That’s one of two that I believe were added later in a room. One has an air vent and the other a trap.

    The more original ones are column.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    Here are some more pics of the system and boiler. It’s been knuckleheaded. 

    Someone removed the Moline vent and put a trap in its place.

    Obviously, the near boiler piping is wrong.


    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    edited August 2023
    Options
    @Steamhead, @TheSteamWhisperer, @Dan

    And any others familiar with a Moline system.

    How would you suggest correcting this?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,840
    Options
    Is that a plug where the relief valve once was?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,942
    Options
    @Ironman , it looks like that thermodynamic trap is piped from the end of the long condensing pipe and down into the return. If true, there is no air vent anymore, and I'll bet the system doesn't heat well if at all.

    The trap is not needed. Remove the concentric reduction at the flange union. Put a tee whose run is the same size as the condensing pipe after the flange union and install two Gorton #2 vents in the bull. Then pipe over to a reducing 90 pointing down and connect the drip line.

    Replace the Pressuretrol with a Vaporstat set to no more than 8 ounces.

    Then try it out and see if everything heats quickly, evenly and quietly. If not, go after whatever problems you find at that point.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    mattmia2IronmanTinmanAlan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    edited August 2023
    Options
    Steamhead said:
    @Ironman , it looks like that thermodynamic trap is piped from the end of the long condensing pipe and down into the return. If true, there is no air vent anymore, and I'll bet the system doesn't heat well if at all. The trap is not needed. Remove the concentric reduction at the flange union. Put a tee whose run is the same size as the condensing pipe after the flange union and install two Gorton #2 vents in the bull. Then pipe over to a reducing 90 pointing down and connect the drip line. Replace the Pressuretrol with a Vaporstat set to no more than 8 ounces. Then try it out and see if everything heats quickly, evenly and quietly. If not, go after whatever problems you find at that point.

    @Steamhead

    Thank you. That was what I was thinking too, but I’m glad to hear it from you.

    Obviously, the near boiler piping needs to be re-done and that’s gonna be the biggest expense.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    mattmia2 said:
    Is that a plug where the relief valve once was?
    The relief valve is behind the right riser.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options


    I guess that some folks don’t understand that a trap will let air pass through, but it won’t remove it.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,840
    Options
    The near boiler piping isn't right and should be fixed if you have to cut in to it, but because that is an older boiler with some sort of a steam chest it might work ok like that, i would make sure steam isn't blowing right through the radiators in to the returns before I would start repiping the boiler.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,942
    Options
    Ironman said:



    I guess that some folks don’t understand that a trap will let air pass through, but it won’t remove it.
    You can't fix stupid!

    Let us know how you make out.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Ironman
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    mattmia2 said:
    The near boiler piping isn't right and should be fixed if you have to cut in to it, but because that is an older boiler with some sort of a steam chest it might work ok like that, i would make sure steam isn't blowing right through the radiators in to the returns before I would start repiping the boiler.
    It’s a 5 year old Burnham V9. It should have a header according to the manual.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,840
    Options
    Ironman said:

    It’s a 5 year old Burnham V9. It should have a header according to the manual.

    It looked older. I guess it is just huge. That isn't going to work the way it is.
    Ironman
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,387
    Options
    Two photos in this thread from 2014. I wonder if an old supply house in the quad cities might have some dusty valves in a back room? Might be worth a phone call.
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/151231/moline-system-in-moline-illinois
    I DIY.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,840
    Options
    Probably should look at the connected radiation and make sure the boiler isn't like 3x oversized before spending money on repiping it too.
    Ironman
  • reggi
    reggi Member Posts: 522
    Options
    I bet the owner remembers having to get that wall repaired last time, does she remember any other wall repairs done at the same time?  Don't want another surprise hiding..
    Excellent work 
    One way to get familiar something you know nothing about is to ask a really smart person a really stupid question
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,543
    Options
    Ah... what is the small diameter soft copper pipe I see? Any chance this is old enough for gas???
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    Ah... what is the small diameter soft copper pipe I see? Any chance this is old enough for gas???
    No, those were connected to the return lines to drain them.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,942
    edited September 2023
    Options
    Ironman said:

    Update on this job:

    We repiped the near boiler with a 4” drop header and Hartford loop, removed the trap and installed two Gorton #2’s as Frank suggested and replaced some rotted/clogged wet return pipes.

    The steam piping will be cleaned up and insulated next week along with a vaporstat being installed.




    There was a major water leak on some return piping inside of a wall and this is what I found when I opened the wall:




    Apparently, someone thought that it was necessary to install drains on these return line so that the house could be winterized?

    By putting the valves down at the bottom, the pipes filled with water and froze when the system was running. Don’t you love the Sharkbites?

    I don’t know why someone would do this and I explained to the owner that the lines automatically drain toward the boiler.

    The system is up and running and all radiators work except for one which may have a clogged return. It takes about 10 minutes for the vents to remove the air once the boiler is steaming.

    The boiler block is a V905 with a V904 burner package. It’s sooted and needs some attention because it’s vented directly into a masonry chimney that needs to be lined.

    (snip)
    No, those were connected to the return lines to drain them.
    Well, that's a new one on me. You never see it all............

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    mattmia2Ironman
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    Steamhead said:
    Update on this job:

    We repiped the near boiler with a 4” drop header and Hartford loop, removed the trap and installed two Gorton #2’s as Frank suggested and replaced some rotted/clogged wet return pipes.

    The steam piping will be cleaned up and insulated next week along with a vaporstat being installed.




    There was a major water leak on some return piping inside of a wall and this is what I found when I opened the wall:




    Apparently, someone thought that it was necessary to install drains on these return line so that the house could be winterized?

    By putting the valves down at the bottom, the pipes filled with water and froze when the system was running. Don’t you love the Sharkbites?

    I don’t know why someone would do this and I explained to the owner that the lines automatically drain toward the boiler.

    The system is up and running and all radiators work except for one which may have a clogged return. It takes about 10 minutes for the vents to remove the air once the boiler is steaming.

    The boiler block is a V905 with a V904 burner package. It’s sooted and needs some attention because it’s vented directly into a masonry chimney that needs to be lined.
    (snip) No, those were connected to the return lines to drain them.
    Well, that's a new one on me. You never see it all............

    It was certainly a new one for me also.

    The lower return was just slightly back graded, but not enough to hold any appreciable amount of water. It seems to be returning water towards the boiler just fine.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,911
    Options
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/na/033fjrht5sek.jpeg
    Shark fittings in the wall? 
    Not allowed!
    Ironman
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,746
    Options
    Looks great!!

    Only thing I see is the make-up water from the feeder shouldn't go directly into the boiler. It should go into a return or the lower Hartford loop to mix with the return before it goes in the boiler.
    Ironman
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    Looks great!! Only thing I see is the make-up water from the feeder shouldn't go directly into the boiler. It should go into a return or the lower Hartford loop to mix with the return before it goes in the boiler.
    That’s probably a good point that I didn’t pay attention to. My partner’s helper re-piped it from pex to copper.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options
    pecmsg said:
    Sharkbites on steam? Not allowed!

    Manual drains on dry returns? Why?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,385
    Options


    This is in Bath County, Va (google the Homestead) where there are folks who have some very expensive second or third homes, but we have to deal with some cheap slipshod contractors. 

    This boiler replacement by “Hatchet Jack” is all too typical:


    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    PC7060