Braided connectors on fixtures

DJD775

Jamie Hall said:

ChrisJ said:

Mad Dog_2 said:

That's what The Culligan Man is for, right?   I Don't pretend to be a Chemist.  Leaving Grapes 🍇 is a lack of pride.  No reason for it...that's what 3 M Pads are for...wipe it as it clumps up.  I question what short cuts and slovenly work this same person does in a crawl space or behind a wall, when no one's around???  Pride of Craftsmanship means a great deal to me.  Mad Dog  🐕 

I have no idea.
I'm genuinely curious if you can change the pH.
I assumed you couldn't. Now I'm wondering if you can.

Yes, you can change the pH, and with some well water it would be a very good idea indeed! The water is run though a tank -- which looks vaguely like a water softener, but isn't -- which is filled with marble or dolomite chips (marble if the stuff is really bad, otherwise dolomite). They neutralize the pH. Usually have to refill every few months. They also raise the hardness -- but if you have low pH, you most likely don't have particularly hard water.

Or you can inject a basic solution, such as potash, into the system with a metered injection pump. My current system has a 30 gallon tank that needs filling maybe 4 times a year.

BenDplumber

Some people start arguments for no reason but there own, they don't work in the trade and contradict everything that a professional has learned and experienced in the day to day work we do everyday. Question them on there software or machinist forums and you'll see how they protect their own " trade" but love to contradict everything that you spent a lifetime in the trenches to learn. We know what works and LASTS. Keep Craftsmanship Alive! Isn't that why we celebrate the Dead Men?

hot_rod

Mad Dog_2 said:

If you have Well water, your water quality can be largely controlled with filtration, so that solves that.  Most buildings with "City Water" send out a controlled water product. 
I never mentioned pinhole leaks, I mentioned catastrophic bursting, which is what that particular flex and others I have seen, did.  I'll take a pinhole leak over a burst any day.  I'll take that pick, Jamie. I'm sure you guys are a good solderers. Torch work is a highly developed skill that takes years or frequent practice to master.  Obviously the most important goal is 
1) Start no fires 🔥...do no harm.
2) A leak free joint.
3) A neat joint with no Grapes 
4) A clean joint free of corrosive Flux.

Chris.  I'm with you in the WirsBRO (I'll also call it that...Where gas Wes gone? )Uponor.  I find it to be VERY trustworthy and the only I will use.  Tried Slant Fin and few others.  Clear Winner.  I did Night work in a hospital 🏥 cutting in New ball valves on old, 1 1/2" Galvanized.  We used Viega Press.  No torch, no firewatch.  The ceilings were so loaded and crammed and it was occupied.  The torch work wooda been hairy...Mad Dog 

Wes is back east, working for IBC boiler. In the process of building out their training lab.

ethicalpaul

BenDplumber said:

Some people start arguments for no reason but there own, they don't work in the trade and contradict everything that a professional has learned and experienced in the day to day work we do everyday. Question them on their software or machinist forums and you'll see how they protect their own " trade" but love to contradict everything that you spent a lifetime in the trenches to learn. We know what works and LASTS. Keep Craftsmanship Alive! Isn't that why we celebrate the Dead Men?

The dead men aren’t making braided supply lines, but seemingly every faucet maker is, don’t look at me. Materials and practices change, dead people don’t 

pecmsg

6' of 3/8" Crome platted copper is a lot of money!

Mad Dog_2

20" Chrome plated Copper Supplies for Sinks and Toilets 🚻 are less than 8 bucks each.   Flexes are 75 cents cheaper.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

20" Chrome plated Copper Supplies for Sinks and Toilets 🚻 are less than 8 bucks each.   Flexes are 75 cents cheaper.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Those prices seem very high for both actually.
$4.76 for a 20" Fluid master and $6.12 for brasscraft chrome riser.

Mad Dog_2

You're leaving out tax and shipping, Chris!  Mad Dog 🐕 🤣 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

You're leaving out tax and shipping, Chris!  Mad Dog 🐕 🤣 

Buy enough and there's no shipping.

Damn sales tax...........

dko

Add a few dollars for the basin nuts! they don't come with most faucets nowadays even if they have 1/2" shanks.

Jamie Hall

If you really want fun, try finding connectors for some of the really old fixtures. We take it for granted that there are certain standard threads and diameters involved. There aren't...

mattmia2

Or even that fine thread brass that is in old work in certain areas.

Mad Dog_2

I'm with you Ben on Craftsmanship and Pride over Speed & Sloppyness.  Its like someone that keeps INSISTING plastic is better  than steel and superior because its lighter and quicker to work with...just to justify their postion. Moreover, Decades in the trade as a successful installer (you and Me) have immense value.  We've seen most of it, tried most of it, seen the failures vis-a-vis the successes out there of our and other's "experiments." Doing this trade as an eager DIYer is tons of fun and I encourage it wholeheartedly - up to certain points. Doing it as the sole support of one's fambly is a whole 'nother issue: Guys like us depend on reliable methods and materials that are NOT going to generate callbacks and our reputations are built on the longevity of the things we installed.  Living and working in my Village since the Mid 1980s is testament to this.  When I walk past a Large commercial Gas Meter manifold for a Roof generator we installed twenty years ago and its still straight and sqaured away, I smile.  When I see some of the first boilers and Bathrooms I installed, I have great pride because even though I later found better ways and products I always used the Best available at the time..  I don't know if I've EVER bought Basin Nuts.  They don't go bad and I've always saved them in a Big jar with lock nuts and tank supply nuts.  The Chunky Red Brass ones are the best. Mad Dog

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

I'm with you Ben on Craftsmanship and Pride over Speed & Sloppyness.  Its like someone that keeps INSISTING plastic is better  than steel and superior because its lighter and quicker to work with...just to justify their postion. Moreover, Decades in the trade as a successful installer (you and Me) have immense value.  We've seen most of it, tried most of it, seen the failures vis-a-vis the successes out there of our and other's "experiments." Doing this trade as an eager DIYer is tons of fun and I encourage it wholeheartedly - up to certain points. Doing it as the sole support of one's fambly is a whole 'nother issue: Guys like us depend on reliable methods and materials that are NOT going to generate callbacks and our reputations are built on the longevity of the things we installed.  Living and working in my Village since the Mid 1980s is testament to this.  When I walk past a Large commercial Gas Meter manifold for a Roof generator we installed twenty years ago and its still straight and sqaured away, I smile.  When I see some of the first boilers and Bathrooms I installed, I have great pride because even though I later found better ways and products I always used the Best available at the time..  I don't know if I've EVER bought Basin Nuts.  They don't go bad and I've always saved them in a Big jar with lock nuts and tank supply nuts.  The Chunky Red Brass ones are the best. Mad Dog

Being as I feel like several of these comments by you and Ben were aimed at me and I'm not sure why, plastic is better at some things. There is no material that's "better".


For example, steel makes a lousy wire insulation.

Mad Dog_2

"Paranoia, big Destroyer..." (The Kinks)....ha ha... Actually, its meant for "Ethical Paul," mostly, but now that you ask, you too, (a bit less so...) also tend to challenge the orthodoxy of long-proven methods and Industry practices passed down through the Centuries by The Deadmen...many of whom are MY actual mentors starting out. My beliefs and strong  opinions are based on close to 40 years, 6-7 days a week doing all kinds of plumbing and heating,wiring, controls,  residential, commercial, industrial and institutional. I have cleaned many a sewer,, dug many a trench, pulled thousands of boilers out of basements, worked on LEED buildings, done large radiant snowmelt and solar jobs....Bungalows, to the Gold Coast Mansions of Long Island to Skyscrapers of Manhattan....ALL SUCCESSFULLY...I'm all for new technology and products, but I'll never drink the Kool-Aid..I move very slowly and cautiously until things pass muster with me....I'm not switching horses midstream on methods & products that have NEVER let me down....somethings don't make the cut like Flex supplies and Megapress for Natural Gas.   My Strong opinions and BLACK & WHITE positions have served me and my fambly well.  That is the reputation I've built, I am renowned for and the Legacy that will follow me.  I get calls all day long from colleagues and home and building owners that want the "skinny" on products,, methods technology.  They seek me out because I cut through the Bull and give them very direct yes or no answers...something rare today....also love the academic jousting...I keep comin.....Peace ✌ ☮  Mad 🐕 Dog 

hot_rod

Mad Dog_2 said:

"Paranoia, big Destroyer..." (The Kinks)....ha ha... Actually, its meant for "Ethical Paul," mostly, but now that you ask, you too, (a bit less so...) also tend to challenge the orthodoxy of long-proven methods and Industry practices passed down through the Centuries by The Deadmen...many of whom are MY actual mentors starting out. My beliefs and strong  opinions are based on close to 40 years, 6-7 days a week doing all kinds of plumbing and heating,wiring, controls,  residential, commercial, industrial and institutional. I have cleaned many a sewer,, dug many a trench, pulled thousands of boilers out of basements, worked on LEED buildings, done large radiant snowmelt and solar jobs....Bungalows, to the Gold Coast Mansions of Long Island to Skyscrapers of Manhattan....ALL SUCCESSFULLY...I'm all for new technology and products, but I'll never drink the Kool-Aid..I move very slowly and cautiously until things pass muster with me....I'm not switching horses midstream on methods & products that have NEVER let me down....somethings don't make the cut like Flex supplies and Megapress for Natural Gas.   My Strong opinions and BLACK & WHITE positions have served me and my fambly well.  That is the reputation I've built, I am renowned for and the Legacy that will follow me.  I get calls all day long from colleagues and home and building owners that want the "skinny" on products,, methods technology.  They seek me out because I cut through the Bull and give them very direct yes or no answers...something rare today....also love the academic jousting...I keep comin.....Peace ✌ ☮  Mad 🐕 Dog 

A legend in your own mind!
Nothing wrong with that😉

Brent H.

I wish there were other options than flex lines on kitchen faucets. I had about $10K of damage from a leaking stainless flex line on my kitchen faucet a couple years ago. It’s was a Kohler purchased through a supply house so not a cheap faucet. I use hard lines on all my toilets. Not hard to do and I don’t worry about them failing.

Mad Dog_2

I'm in good stead with you Hot Rod 🔥...its must be tough always being the smartest man in the room......Mad Dog 🐕 🤣 

Mad Dog_2

This is what I'm talking about Brent....I concur.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

@Mad Dog_2

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

@ChrisJ You learned well.

ChrisJ

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

@ChrisJ You learned well.

Not sure if that's a shot or not...

Larry Weingarten

Hi @ChrisJ , From what I’ve seen of Alan, he’s a straight shooter, no need for innuendo or the like. So, I assume the best until proven otherwise. 🙏

Yours, Larry

Sal Santamaura

It was nine and a half years ago when I replaced our kitchen faucet with this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040YXMRA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

It came with attached PEX lines. No leaks so far. That was before we had the entire house re-piped with PEX seven years ago. If it's good enough to bury in the walls, I guess it's good enough for the kitchen sink faucet. As part of repiping, the outfit that did it used braided flex for the toilets and other sinks. Also no problems with them so far. Of course, I have the service line incoming regulator set to 45 PSI and always shut off the house main valve when we're going to be away for more than the day. Our municipal water is pH 8.1.

Mad Dog_2

You've never heard me knock Pex itself, just some brand's joints. (I use Uponor only for many years)  I'd rather see PEX flexes than SS braided.  I love George Carlin like everyone else (Homeboy from the 5 Boros!) and I'm ALL for rigorous debate and critique to see what emerges as the best.  I've accepted many newer technologies such as PEX, Tankless water heaters, Mod Con Boilers, but I'm not going to follow the trends toward the dumbing down and cheapening of my trade.  One of my Mentors once commented 30 years ago..:"what's next garden hose for the plumbing and heating???"  You're pretty much only seeing the cream of the crop installations here with some hack jobs thrown in for laughs 🤣.   I don't know about you, but I'm in numerous, different buildings and homes per day and see way too much butchery...especially with the newer stuff like PEX, PVC.  It seems like these installers NEVER learned to run pipe or layout a job neatly and now they slop in some PEX, or rough in their Crotons wherever they feel like stopping because SS flexes are all forgiving. Some of these newbies can't even solder a 1/2" without leaks!  PVC & PEX, and flexes turned anyone in to a "plumber"  G.C.s, DIYers, Landscapers... Lessened the skills needed drastically....George Carlin was also the FIRST to call Bull---- on things that were stupid, cheesy or phony.   We need more George Carlins today...Mad Dog 🐕 🤣 

ChrisJ

@Mad Dog_2 We could also use more like John Cleese.

mattmia2

So I know pex specifies it needs to be protected from UV. have you seen actual failures?

hot_rod

I got some Pex A that had been under a job trailer for a year, it would get direct sun at times of the day. It had turned a yellowish color and would split when you tried to expand it.
Then again wasn’t there a bunch of failures on the red and blue colored Pex a recently?

Sal Santamaura

Mad Dog_2 said:

You've never heard me knock Pex itself, just some brand's joints. (I use Uponor only for many years)  I'd rather see PEX flexes than SS braided...

I selected the whole-house repipe outfit based on the fact that they used Uponor PEX and fittings.

jumper

Jamie Hall said:

On flexible hoses. There are flexible hoses -- and then there are flexible hoses. If the hose is designed for a specific pressure, there's no particular reason why it should fail. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, most farm machinery with hydraulics uses flexible hoses in the systems, as do most bigger aircraft, and both of those applications run at upwards of 3,000 psi. So, for that matter, does your car or truck, and some of those applications (such as the front brake lines) don't get much love.

If only we knew what we were getting. When ever I suggested hose for industrial uses I was derided with "MickeyMousePlumbing". Aircraft rated urethane hose will outlast machinery.

ChrisJ

jumper said:

On flexible hoses. There are flexible hoses -- and then there are flexible hoses. If the hose is designed for a specific pressure, there's no particular reason why it should fail. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, most farm machinery with hydraulics uses flexible hoses in the systems, as do most bigger aircraft, and both of those applications run at upwards of 3,000 psi. So, for that matter, does your car or truck, and some of those applications (such as the front brake lines) don't get much love.

If only we knew what we were getting. When ever I suggested hose for industrial uses I was derided with "MickeyMousePlumbing". Aircraft rated urethane hose will outlast machinery.

There's plenty of hoses and tubing used in industrial applications.

Mad Dog_2

I repiped a 6 bathroom Mansion that had old galvanized screw pipe from the 1880s.  I gave the HO a choice:

Wirsbo/Uponor......Propex......$
Copper......................................$$$ (Triple).

You know what they went with!  Precision bypass surgery....very few holes in the plaster.  I've never had a Propex fitting leak. Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

I repiped a 6 bathroom Mansion that had old galvanized screw pipe from the 1880s.  I gave the HO a choice:

Wirsbo/Uponor......Propex......$
Copper......................................$$$ (Triple).

You know what they went with!  Precision bypass surgery....very few holes in the plaster.  I've never had a Propex fitting leak. Mad Dog 🐕 

Oh now you've done it.


How could you say that!

You know what's going to happen now?

Mad Dog_2

I don't have the Irish Superstition...whatever will be will be...Mad Dog  🐕 🤣 

ethicalpaul

> Actually, its meant for "Ethical Paul," mostly

Thanks for the attention, and the "scare quotes", but it's not me, it's every faucet manufacturer who is forcing everyone to use the dreaded stainless steel braided connector lines. See the first post. I feel so misunderstood.

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

> Actually, its meant for "Ethical Paul," mostly

Thanks for the attention, and the "scare quotes", but it's not me, it's every faucet manufacturer who is forcing everyone to use the dreaded stainless steel braided connector lines. See the first post. I feel so misunderstood.

Some do not like those who question things.

Mad Dog_2

If That scares you in to staying away from a product that can do a TON of damage FAST,  I'm fine with that.  My beliefs are based on almost 4 Decades of doing this everyday.  I don't own stock in Solid Basin and Tank Supply companies.  I'm simply passing on what I Have seen, so that YOU don't have to suffer the same damage.  Just lookin out.  I have NO problem questioning ANYTHING, Chris, Paul, et al.  Just make sure YOU are ready to make your case, defend your position, and provide evidence to the contrary and don't take it the wrong way when someone stands their ground and digs in.  I think you might feel the same way, if we weighed in and challenged much of what you do in your trade and your X amount years of experience, no ?  I keep an open mind on all issues and will hear ANYONE out.  This does not mean I will always agree with them.  Peace ✌ ☮ 🕊 
Mad Dog 🐕 

ethicalpaul

> provide evidence to the contrary and don't take it the wrong way when someone stands their ground and digs in.

haha ironically good advice for everyone

STEAM DOCTOR

@Erin Holohan Haskell. Maybe time to close this thread. I can summarize it if you would like. @Mad Dog_2 likes old school methods (some might say a bit  too much). @ethicalpaul likes to question things (some might say a bit too much). If you are buying a faucet with factory attached supplies, then you are stuck with factory decision (so chose accordingly). If faucet does not have factory attached supplies, then you are free to choose as you please, at your discretion and peril. 

Erin Holohan Haskell

I agree. Thanks @STEAM DOCTOR.