Will converting my heat from steam (boiler) to electric baseboard heat freeze my pipes?

pecmsg

emaydeoh said:

A little update for anyone who cares! The electric heaters were installed and... don't do anything. They are about as warm as a toaster. Cannot feel their heat even 6" away. I am taking matters into my own hands and hiring my partner's friend who works on boilers and just going to pay him with my own money, which I shouldn't have to do as a tenant but I really have no other choice. This will use up all of my savings but I am realizing without the radiators going, we are going to be FREEZING (the pipes too) with a $1k electric bill every month.

Save all your receipts 
you can deduct them from the rent!

ethicalpaul

No they can't--they are living there at the pleasure of their uncle who is done spending money there. If they piss off the uncle they will have to move. It's a delicate situation here not solvable with tough stances.

Jamie Hall

Send your partner's friend here and we'll see what we can do to help fix the problem(s) and keep the budget under control.

bburd

I am no fan of electric heat, but if I were you I would check to see that the baseboards are receiving their rated voltage. They may have been connected to 120 volts rather than 208 or 240.

dabrakeman

In addition to more permanently fixing your leaky pipe maybe if you started by sharing some pictures of your boiler, piping around the boiler taken from a distance and typical radiator there may be some help that could be provided to allow you to get more efficiency out of your system to help reduce fuel bills. Any way you can get a camera in to take a few photos of where that leaky pipe is?

mattmia2

Under the water line pipes rust out. Above the water line pipes usually only rust out if the boiler is throwing water in to the mains instead of steam. It also costs a lot more to run a boiler doing that.

JUGHNE

I have used Blue Monster Compression Seal FA tape to seal a leaking steam line.

Supply House 76085 is 1" x 12' roll, about $37 or so.

There is a wider roll available.

It took a steady stream down to a drip with one application.

Pipe must be clean....follow instructions.

EdTheHeaterMan

Still think that @emaydeoh needs to find a new landlord. Inability to be comfortable in your own home is unacceptable. Take that savings and use it to find a new place to rent. Don't fix Uncle's problem for him. Let him fix them for his next tenant. There are homes and apartments for rent all over the place. Why put up with the stress?!?

emaydeoh

Hey everyone, update again, my partner's friend who owns a hearing company thinks he can fix the steam heat. He quoted us $1,800 for the following:
1. Replace a part that he thinks is the reason it isn't letting the boiler turn on right now (low water cutoff or pressure pump? Waiting to hear exactly which part)
2. Deep clean the boiler and piping, emptying it out and refilling for it, waiting for sludge to come out (said it could take all day)
3. Cleaning the chimney for proper ventilation. This has never been done in my 5 years living here... and who knows when before that. I honestly didn't even know the chimney was connected to the boiler.
4. Balancing the system so it isn't working so hard and wasting gas

I am trying to figure out how to afford this but I think it will be worth it. My house is about 1/3rd of what any other house in this area would cost, so the savings just by living here are worth it to me to pursue this myself. I'm basically paying less than a studio apartment in the area costs for a 3br house with a garage and yard.

emaydeoh

@EdTheHeaterMan just commented something similar above but basically I'm paying about 1/3rd of what any other house in this area would cost!

EdTheHeaterMan

emaydeoh said:

@EdTheHeaterMan just commented something similar above but basically I'm paying about 1/3rd of what any other house in this area would cost!

No free rides. This is why you are willing to pay to stay! So maybe Your Uncle ain't such a bad guy after all. I wanted to say this earlier. When the electric heat goes in..... DON'T remove any of the steam pipes. Eventually someone might want to put a new steam boiler in there.

Good luck with your steamer! It is the lowest cost heat to operate once you get it right.

emaydeoh

@bburd yes just confirmed with our repair man they are running 240v! They are on their own 30w circuit breakers. I honestly think it's just too small for the space. Theres a 6ft one in the living room that is rated for up to 200sq ft of warmth, but the room is probably about 300sq ft and open to the kitchen, so about 500sf total...

emaydeoh

@EdTheHeaterMan oh yeah I don't think my uncle is a bad guy at all, I am really appreciative of him letting me live here for so long! It was only supposed to be a year and it has been 5 and it has allowed me to save money I wouldn't be able to save without rent like this. Hes done a lot to fix up the house for me, just wasn't willing to mess with the boiler/steam anymore after like 15 house calls for emergency fixes since I've moved in. Which I understand. I think taking the steam into my own hands is the best option here!

bburd

emaydeoh said:

@bburd yes just confirmed with our repair man they are running 240v! They are on their own 30w circuit breakers. I honestly think it's just too small for the space. Theres a 6ft one in the living room that is rated for up to 200sq ft of warmth, but the room is probably about 300sq ft and open to the kitchen, so about 500sf total...

Square footage is nowhere near an accurate way to determine heating load, especially in an older building not built to modern standards for insulation and air tightness. The actual load has more to do with that and the climate than with square footage.

Jamie Hall

bburd said:

emaydeoh said:

@bburd yes just confirmed with our repair man they are running 240v! They are on their own 30w circuit breakers. I honestly think it's just too small for the space. Theres a 6ft one in the living room that is rated for up to 200sq ft of warmth, but the room is probably about 300sq ft and open to the kitchen, so about 500sf total...

Square footage is nowhere near an accurate way to determine heating load, especially in an older building not built to modern standards for insulation and air tightness. The actual load has more to do with that and the climate than with square footage.

Quite true. And even for a modern house well built and well insulated the figures that are quoted for those strip heaters are wildly optimistic.

dabrakeman

Forgot you got the leaky pipe temporarily patched already. Didn't know your boiler wouldn't turn on now? Do you add water to this boiler manually or does it have an auto feed? You seem reluctant to share any pictures of your setup so I won't push anymore. I'm sure your friend has every intention to help you but you can get a lot of free advice here that just may help you and your friend use your money most wisely.

Mad Dog_2

I'm glad its working out Maddie..Its just terrible Uncle ain't  covering this for you  mad dog

emaydeoh

@dabrakeman I am not sure why it won't turn on! It was working fine with the patched pipe then one day just decided not to turn on & there is no pressure in it now, it won't fire up at all. Our repair friend thinks it is the low pressure sensor that needs to be replaced so I am trying to see if I can find that part online for cheaper. Could also be a low water pressure sensor?


Here's a pic of the boiler, its a 2008 I think - Dunkirk. I know the copper piping near the boiler isn't correct either but can't afford to fix it!

emaydeoh

@Mad Dog_2 you have been so helpful with this process thank you endlessly!

emaydeoh

@dabrakeman Oh and the boiler has an auto feed! I heard it auto feeding every day when the pipe had the leak, once that got fixed, it was still having to re-fill every few days because one of the other radiators started leaking at the union. I turned that radiator off a few days before the boiler mysteriously stopped working again so that it wouldn't lose any more water. I got some good advice on how to replace the union but will not be strong enough to do it myself, so may just keep that radiator off or see if someone can fix it!

Jamie Hall

That near boiler piping is a catastrophe, but we'll leave that aside for the moment.

There are, on that boiler, at least three safety devices which can keep it from firing. One is the low water cutoff. The second is the pressuretrol. Both of those should be one the front of the boiler -- can you post a picture of the front of the boiler for us with those controls?

There should also be a sight glass on the front of the boiler, which will show the water level in the boiler. Can you include that in the photo, or post another photo of it?

The third is that I notice that there is a stack damper on the exhaust pipe. Of the three noted, that is most of then the problem child. That must open before the boiler can fire; what should happen is that the thermostat sends the boiler a signal to run, the damper opens, and when the damper is fully open it in turn sends a signal to the boiler to run.

What, if anything, happens at the boiler when you turn up the thermostat?

emaydeoh

@Jamie Hall
I don't know why the heck they used copper pipe for the boiler! Here is one side of the boiler. Let me find a pic of the other side.
The site glass is showing over half way full.
I noticed the damper on the exhaust pipe is indeed closed, but I think it closes after each cycle. When I turn on the thermostat up to tell it to run, nothing at all happens. Our electrician already checked all of the power supply cords and cords running from thermostat to boiler and confirmed they have power.

Jamie Hall

Actually not a half bad control setup. Two low water cutoffs and two pressure controls. Good!

The lower of the two low water cutoffs (the one mounted on the gauge glass) is a manual reset type. Are there any lights lit on it? What happens -- if anything-- when you press the reset switch?

JUGHNE

In addition to the reset switch that Jamie mentioned, there may be a "blocked vent" switch that could prevent start up.

Go to the front where the door is, then above that door, above the slanted shelf there may be a button to reset. There is a cable going to it, the switch has a small reset button on the back side. Push it and you might hear or feel a click.

emaydeoh

@Jamie Hall Well that is good to hear! The lights on the lower switch for low water cut off does not have lights on, unless I press the reset button it will flash then go back to normal.
@JUGHNE I have never seen that switch, let me see if I can find it. By vent, do you mean the chimney might be blocked? As I mentioned, it has never been cleaned in the 5 years I have lived here, and probably not before that either as the house was very neglected. Part of what I plan on hiring my friend to do is to clean the chimney when he works on the boiler as I am sure it needs it.

ratio

Post pictures. Point your partner's friend here, we can help them get it done a cheaply & effectively as possible.

dabrakeman

When you say nothing happens at all when you turn the thermostat up how quickly can you get down to the boiler room to witness things? 2nd person might help if takes more than 5 or 10 seconds. Reason I ask is sometimes the auto damper can get stuck and it will just hum for a few seconds not open, stop and then the boiler will not fire. The vent opening is the first thing that should occur when the boiler gets the call for heat. If it doesn't open, the boiler will not fire. About 5 years ago mine got stuck. I just manipulated it a bit turning the flat shaft with a pair of pliers and it started working again. Been good ever since. There also should be a manual/automatic switch on the side of it that you could just switch to manual and the turn the shaft to the open position. Don't know of this is your problem but something to check.

Jamie Hall

dabrakeman said:

When you say nothing happens at all when you turn the thermostat up how quickly can you get down to the boiler room to witness things? 2nd person might help if takes more than 5 or 10 seconds. Reason I ask is sometimes the auto damper can get stuck and it will just hum for a few seconds not open, stop and then the boiler will not fire. The vent opening is the first thing that should occur when the boiler gets the call for heat. If it doesn't open, the boiler will not fire. About 5 years ago mine got stuck. I just manipulated it a bit turning the flat shaft with a pair of pliers and it started working again. Been good ever since. There also should be a manual/automatic switch on the side of it that you could just switch to manual and the turn the shaft to the open position. Don't know of this is your problem but something to check.

This. @dabrakeman seems to get up earlier than I do.

pecmsg

dabrakeman said:

When you say nothing happens at all when you turn the thermostat up how quickly can you get down to the boiler room to witness things? 2nd person might help if takes more than 5 or 10 seconds. Reason I ask is sometimes the auto damper can get stuck and it will just hum for a few seconds not open, stop and then the boiler will not fire. The vent opening is the first thing that should occur when the boiler gets the call for heat. If it doesn't open, the boiler will not fire. About 5 years ago mine got stuck. I just manipulated it a bit turning the flat shaft with a pair of pliers and it started working again. Been good ever since. There also should be a manual/automatic switch on the side of it that you could just switch to manual and the turn the shaft to the open position. Don't know of this is your problem but something to check.

Kill the power at the unit
Go upstairs and raise the setpoint.
Go back to the unit, turn it on and watch what happens.

emaydeoh

@dabrakeman @pecmsg @Jamie Hall
I went down to the boiler today and had my partner turn up the thermostat from upstairs following your instructions. I heard a click from the side of the boiler (maybe from the low water cutoff?) but no other sounds, and the boiler didn't try to turn on nor do anything else. I hit the low water cutoff reset again and no lights flashed, but the Test button caused the lights to flash for a moment.

In the past when the boiler would be firing up, I would hear the exhaust pipe vent turning and making a metallic sound as it opened but this did not happen. I will attach some photos here. I saw a switch where I could turn the damper to "hold damper open", tried switching that on and nothing happened. I also didn't see any other buttons on the unit to reset, last photo will show what was on the underside of that slanted front part.
Our repair guy thinks maybe the inside of the boiler is so dirty it is clogging the sensors for low water cutoff, or those sensors and/or the pressure sensors may have failed. The left pressure sensor was replaced 2020. The water in the site glass also looks clean, and the boiler was drained & refilled about a year ago.

Jamie Hall

This may be blindingly obvious, but... are you absolutely certain that you are getting power to the boiler? The test light flashing suggests that you are, but it's worth double checking.

In any event, that stack damper isn't getting power -- if it were, that switch should make it open, or at the very least complain noticeably.

Are you reasonably comfortable with electricity? If so, see if you can trace the power coming from your switchbox through the various controls to see if you can find out which one might be open -- or at the very least, where the power stops.

dabrakeman

Problem may be elsewhere but you can switch that damper to manual and take some pliers and manually turn the shaft to the open position.

emaydeoh

@Jamie Hall I am pretty sure. I personally don't know anything about electricity, but I had my electrician friend trace the power cords going to the boiler and said they all had power. I hear a click when I turn on the boiler at the light switch, and some of those lights come on. The weird thing is, the boiler stopped working the day our handyman was under the house in the crawl space, and I thought maybe he hit one of the wires from the thermostat. Because it seems like maybe the thermostat isn't communicating. We checked that the wire is still intact, and also still wired properly to the thermostat.
@dabrakeman is the part I'd turn with pliers that silver rectangle sticking out by the Open/Closed rotation part (first pic in my last post)?

emaydeoh

@Jamie Hall + @dabrakeman
Another update, I watched a video on how to manually open the vent damper and I got out my pliers to turn the shaft to open. It will not turn more than about halfway to open, and I was starting to apply too much pressure that I worried about it breaking. Tried to wiggle it a little in both directions and it will not budge. It is also obvious now that the damper (gvd-6) isn't working at all, because it doesn't make any noise or indication of power with the thermostat on.
This leads me to believe that the part our friend wanted to replace (the pressure pump) might not be necessary after all. Which also was part of the extremely high quote that I cannot afford on my own.
I am going to try to get a 2nd opinion from @Dave Stroman out here where I live and see if pressure pump replacement right off the bat would even be necessary.

pecmsg

That damper only turns 90° from closed too open.

emaydeoh

this is about how far it would go, does it seem to be at an open point?

pecmsg

NO

emaydeoh

@pecmsg hmm weird, I don't know why it is so stuck! It seemed if I pushed any harder it would break

pecmsg

Try turning counter clockwise 

emaydeoh

@pecmsg @Jamie Hall @dabrakeman
Great news! @Dave Stroman came by today and fixed the heat within an hour, also fixed my leaky radiator.
Funny enough it was a wiring issue with the thermostat. I am not even sure how that happened, but it is up and running for the time being as long as the pipe patch holds the leaky pipe together (another issue from a month ago.) Major thanks to Dave for saving me the headache of replacing unnecessary boiler parts!