New Heat Pump with Oil Furnace Losing Prime ONLY after outside air temp goes below 32

CLamb

Has this installation been passed by the local building inspector?

yellowdog

i dont think that you have an issue with your oil line. sounds more like they do not have the wiring of the heat pump communicating correctly with the furnace and that is what is turning your furnace off at the same outdoor temp all the time.

Jamie Hall

yellowdog said:

i dont think that you have an issue with your oil line. sounds more like they do not have the wiring of the heat pump communicating correctly with the furnace and that is what is turning your furnace off at the same outdoor temp all the time.

I'm sorry to say that didn't occur to me. But, given the overall situation, that is a definite possibility. It could be miswiring in the heat pump -- or just as likely if not more so, miswiring of the thermostat. It would be worth verifying that things are wired up correctly -- although on the track record so far, this could be difficult...

HVACNUT

yellowdog said:

i dont think that you have an issue with your oil line. sounds more like they do not have the wiring of the heat pump communicating correctly with the furnace and that is what is turning your furnace off at the same outdoor temp all the time.

Could be, but I don't think it would cause the burner to go into safety. 

gmcinnes

@Ucantcme00 *Please* don't beat yourself up because you think you aren't able to handle this as you once did. Life happens. We do the best we can with where we're at. None of this is your fault, and you're obviously trying to do the best you can for your parents.

gmcinnes

The thermostat is plausible since the heat pump cuts over to the furnace at approx. the same temp. as the furnace issue, and the installers already made a bad mistake with the thermostat. @Ucantcme00 you said that you previously disconnected the heat pump and ran just the furnace. How did you disconnect it? At the thermostat?

I can definitely imagine a situation where stray voltage / bad ground could hoop the cad cell, for example. But then, I can imagine a lot of stuff, not all of it likely.

And @Jamie Hall is right. There will be a way to install the oil line, even if it involves a shovel and an 18 year old Filipino apprentice. It just depends how much cursing you're willing to hear while it happens

creaftomp

I really apologize for the length of this post and others but I am trying to answer your questions completely and honestly. It is a confusing situation. It shouldn't be, though. I can't express how appreciative I am of all of your suggestions and you kindness. I know your time is valuable. Thank You once again! teatv

hellodear.in

Grallert

No one wants to get under the building. The fuel line should be replaced from end to end IMO. I see some flat spots on the fuel line in the furnace cabinet so that's a red flag for me. What else is lurking under the building. Not to mention two outside unions. Someone NEEDS to get under the home and replace the fuel line. I've often found that old fuel lines left connected to a new install are a major cause of mystery lockouts. For any number of reasons.

Ucantcme00

Will the new continuous fuel line just need to be the same type of line, run roughly the same, but without any connections or valves? If, someone can reach the connection to the furnace from another entrance to the crawl space to connect it from under the house? Just the same thing, without any fittings or valves? Except, maybe a Tiger Loop. if we still have problems with air? Where does the Firomatic valve go? Before or after the line connects to the furnace system?

Ucantcme00

I have found someone to help that I used to work with and that has experience with oil furnaces but not so much with the fuel lines. I am not sure if he still has access to a flare tool, do we have to have one? I may be able to come up with one if absolutely necessary. I also got very desperate the day before yesterday and posted a request for any suggestions for someone to do this work for us. I had to take my Mom to an out of town appointment yesterday, so I just got to look at my messages today, which seem pretty large in number, so I apparently got some response but I do not easily trust people from Facebook unless they are a company that I know, a person that I know or are recommended by someone that I know that has experience with them. The estimate from the HVAC company on Tuesday had me very overwhelmed and upset but you all have kept me from completely giving up and breaking down, believe it or not. I know I wrote too much. Thank You for your time so far!! I just want you to know that it truly makes a difference to us regular people.

Ucantcme00

@CLamb There are no building inspectors in our area. We are not inside a city and do not require building inspections in our County or Statewide. Some WV counties do have building inspectors and the cities definitely do but in counties, usually only for certain types of work and only when completed by a professional. The heat pump with oil furnace was completed by a professional but as I said, we do not have inspectors outside of city limits. I do expect any professional HVAC companies that I hire to follow code though, especially when it comes to safety. The HVAC company did not inform anyone that running the fuel line to the new tank was not included in "their work" until after they had started the work. We had to install a fuel line ourselves quickly. When the HVAC company started blaming the fuel line about two weeks ago, after their own employees had tested the fuel line fittings/valves/hook ups for leaks, we had our old oil furnace person come out to look at the line. He is the person who changed the line to what you see in the pictures as it is today. He just made the problem worse. The furnace (not just the heat pump) did work perfectly when the air temp was over 33 degrees, as long as I pushed the reset button one time, after the temp went over 33. Now, after our old furnace company changed the fuel line hook up and added a check valve in the tank area (I think), no fuel is getting to the system at all. He managed to completely block off the fuel line instead of fixing it. He won't touch anything else because he is worried about liability. He does not want the original company to blame him if any damage happens to the furnace. I am making sure that the pump is not running, since no fuel was getting through the line at all once he made the changes, when he tried to bleed it. @yellowdog @Jamie Hall @HVACNUT @gmcinnes The original HVAC company is who disconnected the furnace from the rest of the heat pump, to just run by itself for over a day, when it ran great until the temp went down below 33 degrees. When the temp went back up above 33 degrees, all that I had to do is hit the reset button once and the furnace would start right back up and keep running again until the next time that the temp went below 33 degrees. I think it has to be some type of sensor or something that they set up wrong. They already figured out that they have had the wrong type of thermostat for a heat pump with an oil furnace installed from December until the Friday before last. @Grallert I think that I may have another HVAC company that might do the work. The Owner just came to see everything and asked questions. He, like you, believes that the problems before we had our old furnace guy work on the fuel line, were probably not related to the fuel line and more likely a sensor or another issue. He is going to try to give me an affordable estimate to run a new, continuous fuel line. If the original company keeps playing around after that, he is willing to get involved and find the problem. He is very upset with what we have been through since December. Not just as a competitor, either, I don't believe.

Ucantcme00

@gmcinnes Thank You! I am just getting so worn out from dealing with this and worrying about keeping my parents warm. I was so excited about them having a new HVAC system in the beginning. I really appreciate all of you, my friend from where I used to work stopped by today, too. He thinks that he may be able to help, if nothing else. I showed him your suggestions and if he does it, he is going to use everything that you guys have suggested. I have also used it so that I know how to talk with these people and to know what I am asking for.

gmcinnes

I'm just a lay person, but replacing the oil line is hard and ruling out a control problem is easy.

If I were you, the next time it's below 33 and the burner is locking out I'd try disconnecting the thermostat wires at the burner, jumpering the terminals and then resetting.  If it's a control issue it will now run normally and not lockout.  Worth 10 minutes to rule a control issue out  IMO. I welcome the experts overruling me on this though.

Either way you should get the line replaced, but if it's a control issue it might not be as urgent.

gmcinnes

I didn't see your recent post. Obviously ignore jumpering the burner until there's actually fuel getting to the boiler

Won't get very far without that!

yellowdog

have you called the manufacturer of the heat pump yet to get a proper wiring diagram for your system? it still sounds like a wiring issue to me.

yellowdog

this is how we are wiring our heat pumps that we add to existing furnaces. i would think that your mobile home furnace should wire very up very similar. where it says heating relay, we use a rib relay. we also always wire up the outdoor sensor to the tstat.

EdTheHeaterMan

Here is a portion of my oil tank install lesson. Proper fuel line for outside above ground tank is important.



I wish I could share the video I made showing the oil flowing thru a clear tube. It shows how the heavier water can stay in place while the oil bubbles thru. Reminds you of the lava lamp I had in 1969. The vides is lost in my son's archives.

Ucantcme00

@yellowdog Thank You! I just had another HVAC company tech come to look at the system and he spent about an hour looking it over. He said the sensors are working correctly as far as he can tell but since it is warm outside and above 33 degrees, he can not observe the system while the problem is occurring.

While the technician was here, he got the fuel line working okay again. Apparently, the other furnace person did not take enough time to bleed the line. This is the second time that has happened with someone thinking it was not working and it was just taking longer that the person expected for the fuel to come through. It is back to the original state when I started this discussion.

It seems like it has to be a sensor or a thermostat issue and not only an air issue because it is always right when it hits the same outdoor air temp, either going up or going down. I understand how physics could cause an air leak to be more impactful (I can't think of the correct term) at a certain temperature but I don't think that it would always be right at the exact temperature. If it were happening because of air in the fuel line only, it would be happening in a general temperature range, not always at an exact temperature, right everyone? And, wouldn't the air be in more of the line than just the little bit that is where the fuel line goes into the system. As soon as it is up to 33 degrees, I hit reset and that air goes through and no more air is in the line, until the system kicks off again. The air is not in the part of the line that is outside. The fact that the furnace kicks off at the exact temperature and I am able to restart it with one push of the reset button when the temp outside is over 33 degrees would mean that it is likely partially a problem with a censor or the thermostat, right? There is only a little bit of air, right at the beginning of the fuel line, where it feeds into the system. It seems like, the system kicks off for some reason, then the fuel goes backwards just a little, causing a little pocket of air where the line enters the system and then, when the system allows me to push the reset button and start the furnace running again, when the outside temp hits 33 degrees, that air goes through and no more air is in the line and it runs smoothly until the temperature outside hits 33 degrees and then it kicks off again. I think the furnace is kicking off first and then the fuel line is getting just a little bit of air in the line where it goes into the system. There is no air in the fuel anywhere else. It runs smoothly after that little pocket of air goes through.

The tech that just left is going to have a meeting with his Owner and a couple of others to discuss the situation and how to handle it, because of this being under warranty from the other company, who is refusing to come back out at this time. I advised him of the pinched area that someone here had mentioned in the line and he found it and agreed that it may be an issue. He also thought that the line needs to be run from underneath and not from above, with the arch. He did make sure that everything is tight. The company is going to get back to me tomorrow with their suggestions. I imagine they are going to provide a large quotation, although I advised them that I am unable to pay a large amount. This is under warranty and I am concerned about another company touching it and voiding the warranty. I think I may call the manufacturer about it tomorrow, once I know what they suggest. I will also ask them about it.

MaxMercy

Ucantcme00 said:

@yellowdog
If it were happening because of air in the fuel line only, it would be happening in a general temperature range, not always at an exact temperature, right everyone?

That would seem to be a logical conclusion, if it's always 33F your seeing the lockout. The issue is that your burner is going into lockout, which would not occur with a temperature sensor problem. Lockouts occur when the primary burner control detects loss of flame when there should be a flame. But I've seen enough to know I've not seen it all or will ever.

That leaves some kind of odd miswiring on the installation that is causing some sort of issue where the burner turns on and then locks out *thinking* it's not seeing a flame when there is indeed one. It's almost like a temp sensor is wired to the cad cell in the burner.. Someone who knows how to get the oil burner to play nice with the heat pump needs to see how it's wired and correct it if it is miswired.

Except... you say there's always air in the oil line, something that should never happen at any temperature if all the plumbing is tight.

I'd love to catch it starting at 33F and seeing if there is a normal flame when the control decides there isn't one.

HVACNUT

To have a sensor or any control wiring other than the cad cell eye or a pressure switch interupt the load side of an oil burner primary and  cause it to go into lockout would be a really neat trick that I would love to see. 

And FWIW, the Beckett primary does capture fault history, if any one of the troops marching in and out of your house happens to have the contractor tool needed to retrieve them. Even though we all know what needs to be done.

EBEBRATT-Ed

There is no reason to have an overabundance of flare joints. Any installer worth a crap can get that line from the bottom of the tank to at least inside the building with no joints.

Then there is the quality of the flare joints to be considered. When I did burner work the flare tools were not as good as the ones available now (the ones made for min splits) that burnish the tubing and we seldom had any leaks and we also used them on refrigeration as well.

With the amount of tubing and room outside there is no problem pulling the line out of the tank and pinching and soldering it closed to pressurize the line to check for leaks. Once the line has been pressurized it can be put back in the tank after the soldered end it cut off.

The tubing going in the tank should be slid down a sleeve of pipe installed in the bottom of the threaded duplex fitting.

In fact if they used pipe into the bottom of the duplex fitting instead of sliding the tubing to the bottom of the tank that could be where the leak is.......who knows what they did.


You need someone with some brain power to to fix this.

EdTheHeaterMan

What happens at 33°

So you have a heat pump that will change over from compressor the oil heat at 33° as a result of an outdoor sensor. With electric resistance backup heat the heating elements are located after the refrigerant coil in the air flow thru the ductwork... Return duct is connected to the air handler that contains the refrigerant coil > then the blower > then the electric resistance heat > then the supply duct. So if the compressor is operating during the electric resistance the refrigerant coil using unheated room temperature air from the return duct. So, both compressor and backup heat can run together.

When a gas or oil fired furnace is connected to a heat pump system, the return duct first hits the blower > then the furnace heat exchanger > then the refrigerant coil > then the supply duct. In this case the refrigerant coil is located downstream of the relatively hot heat exchanger of the furnace. This would cause a real problem with refrigerant coil operation.

That is why the incorrect thermostat you mentioned early on in this discussion was a problem. You can not operate the compressor when ever the oil burner is operating. That would make the air entering the coil too hot for the heat pump to be of any benefit to heating the home. The thermostat MUST be able to determine when the oil burner can run and when the compressor can run. The installers have chosen 33° in your case.

That means that the oil burner will sit idle for hours or days at a time until the outdoor temperature drops to 33° before the oil burner will operate. That excessive down time will allow a small vacuum or air leak in the fuel line to allow just enough air in that will cause the burner to go off by the safety switch. I believe that the problem is still a “leaking fuel line” issue. If the burner operates every hour, even for just 5 minutes, the problem may not present itself, because the small amount of air would not keep the pump from creating enough pressure to open the internal valve to the nozzle. The air might even find its way out thru the nozzle by the fact that the pump is agitating the oil and air to the point that it will exit the pump during the run cycle.

Leave the fuel pump idle for hours or days while the compressor is heating the home, that is allowing the leak to let much more air into the system, and the system needs to be reset. Get the tiger loop that was suggested to see if that will resolve the problem.

Also make sure the fuel line has no "low spots" that can collect water outside of the crawlspace as mentioned in my previous comment.

SuperTech

The burner going into lockout has absolutely nothing to do with the outdoor temperature sensor.  

An outdoor oil tank must have the line coming from the top of the tank. If they connect it to the bottom you are setting yourself up for all sorts of future problems with the oil line freezing due to water and sludge settling at the bottom of the tank. I can pretty much guarantee it.

If it were mine I would re-use the existing line as a return line and run a new supply line from the top of the tank to the oil burner.  Of course I would repair any leaks or pinched points in the line. I always prefer outdoor tanks to be setup for two pipe or single pipe with a Tiger Loop.

MaxMercy

EdTheHeaterMan said:

That means that the oil burner will sit idle for hours or days at a time until the outdoor temperature drops to 33° before the oil burner will operate. That excessive down time will allow a small vacuum or air leak in the fuel line to allow just enough air in that will cause the burner to go off by the safety switch.

That makes a lot of sense and ties in both the burner lockout and the 33F° trip.

John

EdTheHeaterMan

SuperTech said:

The burner going into lockout has absolutely nothing to do with the outdoor temperature sensor.  

An outdoor oil tank must have the line coming from the top of the tank. If they connect it to the bottom you are setting yourself up for all sorts of future problems with the oil line freezing due to water and sludge settling at the bottom of the tank. I can pretty much guarantee it.

If it were mine I would re-use the existing line as a return line and run a new supply line from the top of the tank to the oil burner.  Of course I would repair any leaks or pinched points in the line. I always prefer outdoor tanks to be setup for two pipe or single pipe with a Tiger Loop.

Agree that an outdoor sensor is not directly related to a fuel oil burner tripping on safety from the primary control. I'm saying the amount of time the oil burner is off. (Days as opposed to an hour or so). The homeowner has a top feed fuel line from the tank. There are at least 2 points where the fuel line may have a possible air leak (See fuel tank pic on page 1 of this discussion). I'm saying that the 33° temperature point is where the oil burner will operate after many hours or days of down time, allowing that small air leak to let enough air in the line to cause the burner to go off by the reset when that air pocket reaches the burner.

Since the lowest temperature happens over night, The failure will happen without being noticed. Probably a few minutes after the burner operates from the outdoor sensor signaling the burner to run because it is cold enough. SO OUTDOOR SENSOR NOT THE DIRECT CAUSE, but the outdoor sensor is related because it can leave the burner off for so long.

This is called Connecting the dots and thinking Outside the box

. . .
. . .
. . .

Draw only 4 strait lines to connect all 9 dots without lifting the pen (or pencil) off of the paper.

SuperTech

@EdTheHeaterMan I understand that the down time will exacerbate the problem with a vacuum leak on the suction line, but why would it run properly after being reset once its above freezing? I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just stuck on the idea that a restriction or gelling when it's below freezing is causing a high vacuum on the oil line leading it to lose its prime. 

Without actually being there who knows? But it's easy to tell from the pictures that the solution is to run a new oil line.

EdTheHeaterMan

SuperTech said:

@EdTheHeaterMan I understand that the down time will exacerbate the problem with a vacuum leak on the suction line, but why would it run properly after being reset once its above freezing? I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just stuck on the idea that a restriction or gelling when it's below freezing is causing a high vacuum on the oil line leading it to lose its prime. 

Without actually being there who knows? But it's easy to tell from the pictures that the solution is to run a new oil line.

Perhaps it is running properly above freezing because the compressor is doing the heating above 33°

Remember the homeowner is not an HVAC expert, but can read the temperature on the thermostat.

If the burner operates consistently below freezing, with 2 to 4 cycles per hour, then the air pocket never gets big enough to cause that bubble of air that will cause the burner to have a flame failure. Also there have been times that the homeowner needed to reset more than 3 times so the electronic safety ended up on lockout mode. The technician then instructed the home owner in the procedure to reset after lockout. this is troubling because the homeowner is not qualified to know the difference between when it is safe to use the lockout procedure after 3 resets and when there is an unsafe condition that needs to be addressed before reseting from Lockout.

I just feel this contractor is not doing the best job for the consumer regardless of who paid for the work.

gmcinnes

I'm really looking forward to hearing the resolution of this one. It's cool to see you guys work through a puzzler

gmcinnes

Not sure what to make of this from the customer:

they [contractor] showed up, they acted like no one ever said such a thing [replacing the arches coming from the tank] and only checked for leaks and said they tightened up some valves, tested the furnace, had it running correctly and left. As usual, it continued to cycle perfectly until the outside air temp dropped to around 32-33 degrees. I am not getting the furnace confused with the heat pump. I know the difference. When they tried running only the furnace, with the heat pump turned off. It cycled perfectly, with no air in the line, until the air temp went down to 32 or 33 degrees outside.

I wonder how long it takes at freezing before it quits. Different latencies may imply different reasons.

EdTheHeaterMan

Found that clear oil line video

Water in fuel line. The oil will not push the water out of the way at low flow rate of 1.20 GPH or less. this burner operates at .60 GPH Watch this 3/8" clear tube with a trap. It illustrates that the oil will migrate thru the water in a very thin stream leaving the water to stay in the fuel line. Pay attention at start up to see the initial oil movement and how gravity keeps the heavier water in place.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1udPL8PNrhM50vqwqDTIVQcUMx7leUKF1/view?ts=63ec2cfb
let me know if the video link does not work or not available

Ucantcme00

@EdTheHeaterMan You are thinking like I am and what you are suggesting makes sense with what keeps happening, I have not got a call back from anyone about the tech who came to my home and looked at the system on Tuesday, even after leaving messages. I plan to start having my friend from work put in the new fuel line beginning tomorrow and will use all of the suggestions above that we are able to. Once it is completed, the original installation company will have to come back and fix the problem, if it still exists.

Ucantcme00

@EdTheHeaterMan @SuperTech @MaxMercy @EBEBRATT-Ed @yellowdog @HVACNUT @gmcinnes @CLamb @Jamie Hall Okay, here is where things stand. I have someone that I used to work with coming to my house today. We used to work for a construction company that completed all types of construction including residential/commercial/industrial/public and big and small, from design to completion. My friend was one of the Supers who had hands on and book knowledge and experience with a lot of kinds of work including working with plumbing and some HVAC. He used to work with oil furnaces many, many years ago before working at the business and has done a lot of side work on friends and family oil furnaces up until the last eight years or so, when he cut back because of his age and health. He already looked at the outside tank and line to get an idea of what I have and when he gets here, he is going to go under the trailer and try to reach the area where the fuel line runs to the furnace, so he can run a new, continuous fuel line from the tank to the furnace to make the original company that put the HVAC system in for us satisfied so they will come back and figure out what is making the furnace kick off, if it is still doing so. Other than what you all have already suggested in these very helpful and appreciated comments, are there any other suggestions that you have about running the new line? It has to be run without any unnecessary fittings or breaks in the line where air could get in, of course. I am just hoping that he is able to find a way to get to the place where other people have told me that they were unable to reach to attach the line to the furnace under the trailer, since the new system was installed. He is pretty good at crawling around small areas and getting dirty if he has too. He is also good at thinking outside the box. I will check back a couple of times to see if you have any more suggestions for running the line. I know that some of you like TigerLoops and some are not so in favor of them, partially because they cover up problems that need fixed. Should we just start with the new fuel line by adding a TigerLoop instead of waiting and maybe needing to add it later, since there seems to be the issue with the furnace kicking off when the outside air temp hits 33 degrees and then the small amount of air that happens which then clears when I hit the reset button. Could the TigerLoop potentially help prevent that pocket of air from forming? Again, I hate to bring it up and I know it is important to do things right because it makes a big difference in the long run, but keep in mind that, unfortunately (and never something that I ever thought possible would happen to my family or myself), we are very low in funds at this point in our lives, so I can't spend a lot. I have to have this done right but not the most expensive options, please.

Ucantcme00

@HVACNUT The tech from another company that came to my house on Tuesday to look and see if they can find the problem told me that the first company should have put a "shield" inside the compartment where the coil is that you asked about, which may be why we are feeling so much more heat from the cabinet where the system is located in our hallway area. I didn't even know it is there. It is at the bottom of everything else, under a separate door that has to be removed to see it. You had the right answer, clear back when all of this mess first started. I just wanted to update you.

MaxMercy

I have a strong feeling your problem will go away once the continuous line is run from the tank to the boiler. If it were mine, I'd put the oil line at the bottom if it has a fitting and assuming your line isn't on top of the tank now because of accumulated sludge at the bottom. Bottom connection tanks are more reliable.

I've never put in a top feed oil line, but the connection of your new line to the top of the tank must also be airtight as well as the dip tube. Maybe someone here can explain how it should be done.

A lot of guys will put in a Tigerloop whenever a top feed oil tank is used or whenever the oil line itself is run above the static oil line in the tank even on a bottom connection tank. It's no sin to use one and they do correct random lockouts due to air getting past a seal.

Ucantcme00

@Grallert Thank You for pointing out the flattened lines on the interior area. Those lines haves been brought up before by the company who installed them. They called and informed me that they had determined that they were most likely causing part of the problem because they are flattened or pinched and because of the way that they are arched up in the air and not run from beneath. Once they arrived, they did not replace the line, they only tightened some fittings and left. When the other company came to look at the system on Tuesday, the tech did notice the same issue and made note of it. Unfortunately, the company that sent the tech out to look over and test the system on Tuesday, who's Owner had been out the week before, said they were having a big meeting with a couple of people who are aware of the issues on last Wednesday and would call me that afternoon, seems to have disappeared on me. They have not called as promised and when I called them yesterday morning, I was told that the Owner was planning on calling me and would call me right back, but never did.

Ucantcme00

@EdTheHeaterMan The oil furnace comes on and works well in the upper 30 degree range, it just kicks of every time the outdoor air (on my laptop) goes down to 33 degrees. Once the temp goes back up above 33 degrees (again on my laptop), I know that I can press the reset button once and the furnace will operate smoothly until the temperature goes back down again. It does run smoothly but only if the outdoor air temperature (on my laptop) is above 33 degrees. I know I have to sound like a broken record. I wonder if that is part of the problem? They still have the settings wrong between the heat pump and the furnace?

The heat pump also quits around the same temperature. They should not be running at the same time, right? I thought the heat pump was not working when the temperature was in the lower 30's because they don't work in those temperatures. That is what the HVAC employees led me to believe. Should the heat pump be working in lower than 30 degree temperatures?

BTW, I am keeping a very detailed calendar, including the temperatures that my parents have had to endure and the additional expenses that we have had.

My friend looked at the tank and under the home, where the fuel like runs and he is picking up the line and other things that he needs and will be back tomorrow morning to run the new line from the tank to the furnace. He looked over all of these suggestions about running the line and things not to do, so he makes sure that it is run correctly.

One more question. The HVAC company told me that when using the thermostat, we can never set it for more than 2 degrees above or below the temperature that it is reading at the time because if we do, it gets the system "confused". Have you heard of that? It is a huge problem because when it is cold overnight and the furnace is off because it is under 33 degrees and the heat pump is not keeping the house warm, the temperature in the house goes down very low and when the outside air temp is high enough for the heat pump to work again in the morning, the reading on the thermometer is way lower that the setting of 68 degrees or where we left it the night before, so it is confusing the heat pump according to the HVAC company, according to the HVAC company. I have to start by putting the temp on the thermometer clear down to 2 degrees above whatever it says it is in the house in the morning on the thermometer, like 54 or 56 degrees, then turn the entire system off and then on again (using the switch that they showed me inside the cabinet) and work up two degrees at a time, until I get to where my parents need it, if the heat pump and/or furnace is working well enough to get it there for that day. There is no way that my elderly parents would be able to do this on their own. This can't be normal, can it??

If the furnace is still kicking off at 33 degrees, I will call the original company back on Monday morning and if I do not get an acceptable response, will be taking some of the actions that you suggested along with some of my own since this started with a state grant. I know Senator Manchin from my days of volunteering and his office is very active in helping people who have problems like this.

rick in Alaska

Am i the only one who doesn't see a fuel filter anywhere? A lot of the mobile homes I had to work on had the fuel filter under the trailer, or at least in the burner cabinet.
I am thinking a 1A30 filter under the trailer, with a lot of sludge in it, that is pulling a high vacuum but only showing up when it is cold. Maybe the filter has water in it, and the bowl is just inside the foundation where it can freeze.
The statement that you can push the reset button and it starts right up makes me think it is not an air issue. If it was an air issue, it would not fire up until the pump is bled of the air.
It looks like there are two lines going in to the furnace casing, but only one being used. Where does the other line come from, or go to?

MaxMercy

rick in Alaska said:

Am i the only one who doesn't see a fuel filter anywhere?

There aren't any pictures of the furnace other than close-ups of the burner. I assumed it was nearby. That would be something if there was one that was forgotten about and abandoned...

Ucantcme00

@rick in Alaska @MaxMercy I was informed that there is a filter installed by the HVAC company but that if we would like to install a second filter in "our part" of the line, we could do so. They did not show me or tell me where it is. I will make sure that my friend who is helping me tomorrow checks to see where they put it. I have not seen anything under the trailer. They also told me that there is a shut off valve installed.

@rick in Alaska You reminded me of something else that the original HVAC installers said to me in December when this all started. When they were installing the new system, I asked them about needing something (I can't remember what) and they responded that we would no longer need it because this system would no longer be a single fuel line system. And then, it seems like it is a single line system, or is that the whole problem? Is it supposed to be and it does not have the correct fuel lines hooked up to it? They have said so many things and contradicted themselves that I can't believe anything that they tell me at this point.

rick in Alaska

I myself would not worry about it being a single line system. A major percentage of the installations in my area of Alaska are single line systems with an outdoor tank like you have. One of the nice things about it is that the fuel moves slower from the tank compared with a double line system, which gives it plenty of time to warm up before it reaches the burner.
As I have said before, find the old filter and find out if it has been changed.
Also, I would at the least, take the short piece of tubing outside and replace it with one line from the first coupling coming out the foundation, and in to the fuel tank. I would pull the line completely out of the tank and see it it is indeed one line going down to the bottom of the tank, or if there is another piece in the tank. It might have a separate line in the tank of copper or steel. You can drill out the compression coupling in the duplex fitting on the top of the tank, and slide a new piece of copper tubing down to within a few inches of the bottom of the tank, and then connect the other end of the tubing to the coupling at the foundation. At the very least, you will lose two potential air leak spots, but have the potential to lose as much as four.
Rick