New Heat Pump with Oil Furnace Losing Prime ONLY after outside air temp goes below 32

Ucantcme00

@MaxMercy The only time that there is air in the line is when the temp is going down and hits 33 degrees and the small pocket of air is supposedly right at the very beginning of the line where it is entering the burner (according to one of their techs) and it is cleared as soon as the reset button is pushed. There is no more air in the line until the next time that the temp hits 33. It is every time. If it is above 33 (on my laptop), it will run smoothly, sounding good and with no issues. Below 33, it will run one (I believe) full and smooth sounding cycle but does not run another and the furnace kicks off, with the air again, only a little, at the beginning. It will run once, if I hit the reset button, until the temp goes back above 33 and then, back to normal.

MaxMercy

Ucantcme00 said:

@MaxMercy The only time that there is air in the line is when the temp is going down and hits 33 degrees ...

Right, but that's my point - there should never be air in the lines regardless of temperature, so either we have the one problem (suction leak in the oil lines) or two (miswiring or other install gremlins of your new equipment).

Time will tell.

Ucantcme00

@MaxMercy @EdTheHeaterMan @rick in Alaska @SuperTech @yellowdog Update as of 02/21/23 at 1:45PM The new fuel line is run continuously and is blead with no air in the line at all. We made sure to run it plenty of extra time to get all of the possible air out of the line as you said to, earlier in this discussion. The furnace continues to run well on the emergency heat setting when the temperature is in the high thirties, above 33 degrees. We have to wait until Wednesday night or Thursday to see about how it will work when the temp goes down to 33 degrees. These pictures are updated as of this afternoon. I am hoping that it is run well enough now to not be blamed for any issues. Here is the new way that my friend ran the line on the outside from the tank to the house after I showed him your posts (and graphics) again today. I am not quite excited about the way he ran it but hopefully, it is acceptable and is better than the way it was yesterday:







I am guessing that when I asked him to not run it the way that it was and to run it the way that you showed it in your examples, he didn't want to take things apart again or have to flare anything again, which is why it seems to have so much extra line curving around. I did not see it until he was gone. I hope it is good enough.

EdTheHeaterMan

Looks better.... I just can't tell if that last turn before it goes into the crawlspace has a small dip or not. it is the angle of the photo.

EdTheHeaterMan

By the way. My experience with water in the fuel line is that the outdoor temperature needs to drop well below 32° for water in the fuel to freeze. I'm thinking in the the mid 20s because the water is not 100% water.

My expert opinion is that you don't have a freezing problem. Somewhere there is a misplaced wire that is causing the flame to extinguish or the flame sensor to not see the flame, when the outdoor sensor reaches 33° setting on the thermostat. If that is the only outdoor sensor connected to the system. That is why I wanted to know if there is a fossil fuel kit. You don't need a fossil fuel kit, but if you have one and it is connected incorrectly, that may be the problem. If you don't have one then this is even more mysterious.

MaxMercy

Ucantcme00 said:

@MaxMercy @EdTheHeaterMan @rick in Alaska @SuperTech @yellowdog We have to wait until Wednesday night or Thursday to see about how it will work when the temp goes down to 33 degrees.

Either way, air in the lines was going to be a problem if not now, then soon. The oil line needed to be fixed for any long term reliability. If you get a lock-out again, it won't be from air in the lines as long as all the new connections are tight.

Personally, I think you have an 80% chance of this being fixed.

SuperTech

It could definitely look neater. In New York we are required to use plastic coated oil lines to prevent corrosion from it coming in contact with masonry. I'm hoping it's all one continuous line from the burner to a few inches from the bottom of the tank without any unions this time. Like @MaxMercy I feel like you have a decent chance of this being the end of your problems. 

I'm hoping for the best for you @Ucantcme00.

gmcinnes

Has anyone other than the clown show contractors actually confirmed there *was* air in the line?

Anchoring bias is a helluva drug.

Ucantcme00

@gmcinnes No, they have not. No competitors want to get involved. I only found one that would come and they did not do any testing with any equipment or tools, He seemed to listen to my description of what happens, but all that his company did was propose changing the system to a dual line system instead of being a single line. His boss does not seem to understand what I described at all. I know it might not make much sense but I know what happens every time. At least as far as what I hear and the fact that every time the furnace part quits, I look at my laptop and it says 33 degrees. It does not run rough at all, when it is running before it quits at that point. I don't believe the issue is the fuel line. I just had to put a new, continuous line in, because the original contractor said they would not come back to work on the furnace until I did, to rule that out as a cause.

@EdTheHeaterMan @SuperTech @MaxMercy @rick in Alaska @yellowdog I have a tech on the way from the original HVAC company, believe it or not!! Since I had the new fuel line put in yesterday and bled the line, the furnace (I think) is making a small thud sound about once an hour, it is not lighting or burning, (it is 47 degrees outside) and then a second later the fan/blower always turns on and then, sometimes, a couple of seconds later the heat pump turns on. It scares me. Is it something that I should be worried about or can I wait for a few days to have it checked, when the HVAC company comes out for something else? Nothing was touched on the furnace other then the place that is used to bleed the fuel line.

3PM The tech just called and said it is normal for the heat pump system to make a thump noise when starting up in trailers. I explained that it just started yesterday, after hooking up the new fuel line and he said that has no impact. He won't be coming out and it is not an issue, according to him.

yellowdog

sounds like it is just the blower motor turning on. you have probably never heard the sound before because the sound of the oil burner has always masked it. make them look at it while they are there.

Ucantcme00

Tonight should be low enough in temperature to see if we have got this issue fixed. Everyone cross their fingers!! I actually used the a/c yesterday and it seemed to work well.

EdTheHeaterMan

Ucantcme00

@EdTheHeaterMan @SuperTech @rick in Alaska @MaxMercy @yellowdog @gmcinnes and everyone else who has helped me so much over the last couple of weeks. One more long post. lol

I think that the system is staying on now, our temps went below 33 degrees last night (between 25 and 30) and the system was running this morning and heating appropriately, it had not kicked off and I did not have to hit reset. I think that between the thermostat change that the HVAC company made to run the oil furnace system properly with the heat pump along with the new fuel line being run last weekend combined got it working correctly. I did keep track of everything along the way, beginning with when I got the call saying my parents were tentatively approved for the grant to replace their HVAC system. I even kept the original line that their employees kind of spliced into and ran to the out of ground tank (which I just discovered that they did, not us), with the extra fittings and connections that the HVAC company flared per @EdTheHeaterMan. I plan to write them an e-mail letting them know that I have this information and list some of the key dates, so I can insist that they start the warranty now, or at the very least, a couple of weeks ago, when they installed the correct thermostat to run the system, instead of December, when this mess started.

I really appreciate all of your help and suggestions. Your support was amazing. I know I took a lot of your valuable time. I hope I won't have to take any more after this post. Although, I think I will miss you guys, lol.

I still have some questions for the HVAC company though and things that need to be completed soon, one way or another. Things that you all have brought up and that are important including the firomatic valve, which isn't there as far as I can tell and a shut off (if it is separate from the firomatic). My fuel line guy did not add them because the HVAC company kept saying that the line had to be one continuous line run from the tank to the compartment of the system. I will ask if they intend to install the firomatic and a shut off, like we used to have and is required. I also have some other questions that you have told me to ask about. I plan on letting a lot of people know how bad my elderly and disabled parents were treated by this company and how they were left without heat since December in the coldest of weather.

But, once again and most important, THANK YOU!!! You have no idea how much it meant to me, just to have knowledgeable HVAC people to hear what I was saying and to believe me and not just write me off. I wish I could send money out to each one of you for your services and time that you took to understand and teach me about what was happening and what should be happening. Thank You for the video explanation and the graphics.

EdTheHeaterMan

In my humble opinion, The HVAC installer should not only start the warranty in February, But also offer compensation for the fuel line that you needed to pay for. If they did their job on the fuel line correctly, then you would not have needed to pay some one more competent with a flaring tool to fix their mistake. Include the invoice that you paid for the new fuel line in your email. Also include this link https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/191375/new-heat-pump-with-oil-furnace-losing-prime-only-after-outside-air-temp-goes-below-32 so they can see the documentation of the problem.

Also give them my information you have from our private message. I'll be glad to give them a piece of my mind, about a business that was trusted with your heating comfort and the health and welfare for your parents, could just walk away from their responsibility during extreme cold weather.