Intermittent Issues On Steam Boiler

Rizz861

Hello, 
Im having issues on a steam boiler dropping out but it is always running when I get there. I think it’s the igniter/flame rod assembly, ignition control module, or gas valve. Boiler is a Burnham PIN4SNI-ME2. Ignition control module is Honeywell 8610M and gas valve a Honeywell VR8204C6000. Standing pilots are easy for me to troubleshoot thermocouple or gas valve by checking mV of thermocouple, but I’m not sure how to troubleshoot an intermittent ignition. So I get 24v at PV and igniter sparks until pilot is lit. I then get 24v at MV and she’s up and running at this point. I checked ground from control to the igniter/flame rod combo and it looked a little dirty so I cleaned it to bare metal. This was a suggestion from the 8610M manual. I was wondering about checking the spark as manual suggests. It seems sketchy, do they make a tester for this? Would it be best to just take a spare igniter boot for the jumper wire (they suggest a well insulated wire because it’s 10k volts). I’d like to rule out each part so I’m not just changing parts, although with this place I could do all 3 but I’d like to know how to properly test. Thanks in advance!

Jamie Hall

By "dropping out" do you mean that it will run for a while, and then with no external control changes (LWCO, pressuretrol, thermostat, whatever) it will just stop?

Loss of intermittent ignition shouldn't cause it to do that -- once it's lit, it's lit. Unless, of course, you lose the flame signal. Then it should shut off!

JUGHNE

Did you clean the flame sensor? Is it part of the ignitor?

Rizz861

I’m leaning towards loss of flame signal. To be honest the unit is always running when I get there. This unit is at a property we manage and we have had issues since the beginning of the heat season (October or so). It is always dropping out intermittently and of course when I’m not there. The unit dropped out briefly for a second and I was able to reset it with disconnect. It happened quick before I could get meter on anything, but it seemed like it was the transition from PV to MV. 

Rizz861

@JUGHNE It’s an assembly like most Burnham boilers are. I gave it a once over with a scotch bright pad though. 

Jamie Hall

Also check all your connections -- especially grounds.

mattmia2

What makes you think it is ignition and flame proving vs a safety or gas pressure?

JUGHNE

Did you clean the pilot orifice and clean up the pilot hood?

Good ground is critical......even all the way back to the CB panel.

Recently here someone had the same problem and looked in the power junction box.
The incoming ground wire in the cable was not connected, just floating in air.

Rizz861

@JUGHNE Yes I cleaned that out. I’ll check the grounds out when I go to clean boiler on Monday

Rizz861

@mattmia2 I don’t think it’s a safety because they got changed out last year by another tech (LWCO and pressuretrol). No sign of flame rollout so I doubt it’s that and I took flue apart and inspected chimney looking for blockages so I doubt it’s the spill switch. It pretty much bangs right into the chimney so no crazy venting issue. As far as gas pressure, I can’t be certain on that because I honestly didn’t think to test that. Let’s assume the incoming gas psi was good but on the outlet it’s off. Would that cause this intermittent drop out like I’m seeing? I’ll slap a manometer on it on Monday when I go to clean it. 

mattmia2

I was thinking more along the lines of the water is exiting the boiler for some reason and the lwco is doing what it is designed to do or a vent damper is not working properly. The gas pressure could drop when some other appliance is operating or when it starts.

JUGHNE

Flame roll out is probably a one time fuse.
Flue spill switch is manual reset.

LWCO and P-trol are auto reset, unless you have manual reset LWCO.

All the manual safeties someone would have to reset.

If P-trol is set too low it may not restart after reaching high pressure.
The screw inside can be disconnected from the mechanism.

Is the pigtail clean?

And lastly does the tstat rely upon batteries?

pecmsg

Rizz861 said:

I’m leaning towards loss of flame signal. To be honest the unit is always running when I get there. This unit is at a property we manage and we have had issues since the beginning of the heat season (October or so). It is always dropping out intermittently and of course when I’m not there. The unit dropped out briefly for a second and I was able to reset it with disconnect. It happened quick before I could get meter on anything, but it seemed like it was the transition from PV to MV. 

If you take care of the property you should Know what it’s cutting out on!

Are you saying you shut off the power and turn it back on and the boiler resets?

Rizz861

OK I think a lot of you guys are missing what I’m trying to ask. Let me clarify a few things : it’s not the LWCO or pressuretrol as they were installed last year by another tech and my company did a service this year which meant cleaning LWCO probe and pressuretrol pigtail. Pressure setting on pressuretrol is correct. I mentioned the other safeties to relay to others on here there are no rollout or draft spillage situations occurring. I cleaned ground that goes to igniter/flame sensor, cleaned orifice of pilot, and made sure pilot flame is steady, blue and hitting the flame sensor. Thermostat is newer with fresh batteries. Also, I should clarify that when I said cutting out I wasn’t referring to pressuretrol settings, I simply meant the boiler kicking off because of the issue I’m having. Sorry for any confusion. Based on the troubleshooting flow chart of the 8610M ignition control module it would seem it would be the gas valve, the module, or the igniter/flame sensor. http://honeyvell.ru/files/documents/Honeywell-S8600H3002-Install-Instructions.pdf 
Troubleshooting is page 14

I think if I could test the flame rod I could figure this out. Anyone know how I’d check that out?

@pecmsg I don’t maintain the property, my company does. Other “parts changer” techs have had their hands on this one. I’m here as a newer tech for advice so I won’t be a parts changer. I want to accurately diagnose the situation. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Measure the flame current and check all the grounds. You have to put an analog meter in series to check the flame current on microamps. Should tell you on the 8610m module sheet

JUGHNE

So the complaint is that the building gets cold and by the time you arrive the boiler is firing?

Except for one time that you cycled the power and it fired up.

Does the info say anything about 3 tries to light and then lockout to be reset by cycling power or tstat?

Rizz861

@EBEBRATT-Ed I just looked up the boiler manual and that’s where the information was. It wasn’t in the ignition control module. Anyways, it says I want 1 DC micro amp min, but 2 for reliable operation. Looks like I put my leads on control itself on two taps specifically for this. I will do this Monday when I go back. Now let’s say I get one or less DC micro amps for a measurement, than obviously the flame rod of the combination igniter module is no good and is the culprit I would say, right?

Rizz861

@JUGHNE So it was running when I got there but I turned it off to inspect everything. I cycled a couple times and it worked, but one time it briefly kicked out. Now that I figured out how to measure the flame current I think I’ll be able to narrow it down. When it kicked off it did so right before MV would be energized, so pilot was lit. My guess is a flame sense issue but I won’t know til I measure. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Rizz861

Most controls have you put the meter in series with the wire you have to have a meter that reads microamps. But, follow the instructions for your control. 1-2 microamps sounds right.

ethicalpaul

Many controls today have a blinking light that will tell you, in blinks, the reading from the flame sensor. I looked in the manual pdf that was posted and this one seems not smart like that.

Rizz861

Now let’s throw one hypothetical situation out there. Let’s say the flame rod checks out and I can rule that out. That leaves gas valve and ignition control module. If I get igniter going and 24v at PV and no pilot I know it’s gas valve. If pilot lights and I get 24v at MV and it doesn’t fire I know it’s gas valve. If I lose 24v at PV with pilot lit I know it’s ignition control module. If I lose 24v at MV with boiler firing I know it’s ignition control module. How would I troubleshoot either one if I can’t get my meter on it before boiler shuts off? I suppose I could keep trying to cycle it to force the scenario so I could test it and hopefully boiler kicks off when I have my meter on it. What if this can’t be done? What if it won’t kick off when I’m there with my meter checking? Is there another way to test these two components? Thanks in advance for all the help!!

Rizz861

@EBEBRATT-Ed Can you elaborate on how you would test the flame sense current? I called Honeywell tech support about the 8610M control and even he didn’t know how to test it!! On other versions there is a spot on the ignition control module with a + and - symbol you hook your leads to test. This control lacks this, so how do you test this in series as you suggested? I put an alligator clip adapter on one lead of multimeter and put that on the PV of gas valve and stuck the other lead in the female spade from the ignition control module wire that was suppose to go to PV on gas valve. The result was OL on meter (it was obviously set to DC micro amps btw). Pilot didn’t ignite. I then put the wire from PV terminal of ignition control module back on to gas valve. I then tried putting one lead on PV terminal on gas valve and the other on PV on ignition control module. I got 59 DC micro amps. Clearly both attempts were wrong, and I’m glad I didn’t mess up my meter with my ignorance of how to properly do this. Can you please line me out on the proper way to do this?

Rizz861

Well folks, I said the hell with it and replaced the ignition control module and flame/igniter combo and one of the two solved the problem. I talked to Honeywell and the tech I spoke with didn’t even know how to test the flame current on the 8610m ignition control module. What is interesting to note is I’ve seen an 8610m without the taps for your meter leads and I’d encountered another 8610m that did have the taps to measure flame current. The universals have them as well. It would be awesome if someone could relay how to check the flame current on these ignition control modules without the taps for your meter leads. I was told to measure in series but I believe I did it wrong. Anyone care to elaborate?

109A_5

Hello @Rizz861,

Rizz861 said:

@EBEBRATT-Ed Can you elaborate on how you would test the flame sense current? I called Honeywell tech support about the 8610M control and even he didn’t know how to test it!! On other versions there is a spot on the ignition control module with a + and - symbol you hook your leads to test. This control lacks this, so how do you test this in series as you suggested? I put an alligator clip adapter on one lead of multimeter and put that on the PV of gas valve and stuck the other lead in the female spade from the ignition control module wire that was suppose to go to PV on gas valve. The result was OL on meter (it was obviously set to DC micro amps btw). Pilot didn’t ignite. I then put the wire from PV terminal of ignition control module back on to gas valve. I then tried putting one lead on PV terminal on gas valve and the other on PV on ignition control module. I got 59 DC micro amps. Clearly both attempts were wrong, and I’m glad I didn’t mess up my meter with my ignorance of how to properly do this. Can you please line me out on the proper way to do this?

You and Honeywell seem a bit confused. Honeywell should know their products better. With your connections to the PV terminal, it sounds like you were trying to measure the current through the coil of the gas valve's PV coil and had the meter set up to measure flame sense current. Two entirely different things. PV and MV coil current is most likely going to be AC current and I would expect would be in Milliamps. Flame Sense Current is DC Microamps.

I would encourage you to read the entire document, although the specific information you want is near the end, starting at page 21 "Checking Microamps".

https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/Troubleshooting-Intermittent-Ignition-Systems-for-Gas-Furnaces-and-Boilers2.pdf

Mad Dog_2

Sounds like you finally got it, but you can save yourself alot of time and heartache by alerting Timmie Mc Elwain..I'm surprised he didn't see this conversation.   This is his home field advantage; intricate troubleshooting of equipment. I can't say I ALWAYS use every one, but when I took his weeklong classes he took me out to FWWebb in RI where he was treated like The Beatles showing up. Timmie is a living legend in New England and Rhode Island through his Gas company and teaching career.   I said tell me EVERYTHING I need to troubleshoot boilers and furnaces.  We saw his favorite counterman and I got Timmies Discount and I still spent close 1 Large (1000 bucks). 😊 happily.   I got a DC microwave this...a thermocouple test rig that!....et cetera.  He has also took me down to HVACTV studios and we did  a Live show with the great Ric Murray.  Dan got Ric Murray to come down to Long Island to my 1899/1900 Country Victorian Farmhouse and do a whole program on the systems I was installing from scratch.  Namely, my Steam Vapor system with Antique scrolled and filigree radiators.   I wonder if that is still available?   YouTube?  Is HVACTV still going?  I still remember Dano sitting on the front Country porch and taking it all in.....We also drank ice T lemonade or a cold beer 🍺 on this very porch..NOT during the show!!! I swear  ha ha. The brilliant Noel Murdough (RIP) his supercool wife Lisa spent many A  hot summer afternoon on this porch sipping cold drinks and talking The Steam...politics, Life...... Very fond memories .  Excuse the trip down memory lane , just stepping back and "supping on " (Conor Larkin in the great Irish classic Trinity by Leon Uris) a very proactive, gung ho, all in career.  Reading Dan for the first time in 1986 B & G pamphlets at the supply houses and then in PM magazine articles, I swam out and caught the Dan Holohan tidal wave that was building up steam (pun intended!).   It all came timed perfectly as he was hitting his racehorse like stride and I was just starting out.  Like Patton and Mac Arthur's loyal gung ho troops, I saw the greatness of this new leader and his cause and enthusiastically got in his armored tank column charging foward.....Many of my closest friends have been associated with and directly the result of a  Dan Holohan Seminar., the Wall and Heating Help.com.   18 books in, I'll still buy his books...even if he does a book of Cartoons!   Dan is the best and attracted the best out there like Bees 🐝 to Honey.  Then the smooth relay race baton hand off to Erin has been great to watch.  I honestly don't know of any other person,  in any other profession who has done more to educate his flock. Looking foward to another 40 years with The Holohan Army.  Very blessed. Yes, Timmie is part of this world. Take his class or buy his books. Highly recd.   Mad 🐕 Dog 

mattmia2

Wait, @Tim McElwain has books?

Mad Dog_2

Tons of binders on a myriad of detailed subjects. Very reasonable too.  Mad Dog

Rizz861

@109A_5 That link you sent me is a game changer. I’ve got a bunch of what I thought were pretty good books on heating and none of them go into this amount of detail. I’m gonna print this off and have the wife laminate these bad boys and stick them in the work van. I can’t thank you enough!!!

109A_5

Hello @Rizz861,

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I believe @Tim McElwain compiled that information years ago. I found it one day with a Google search. There does not seem to be an obvious link to it on this web site. Flame detection by flame rectification is certainly nothing new, maybe just largely overlooked.

Maybe if you are interested;
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/191202/timmie-mcelwains-upcoming-schedule#latest

Rizz861

@109A_5 Yeah I’m familiar with the concept but I’ve never seen such a comprehensive means to test for it in all of my books. I’m up in MA so RI isn’t too far. I think I’m going to talk to my boss today and make him cough up the doh for the class and a week of lost pay. I’m a long term employee and it seems like a no brainer to make accurate diagnosis. He already has enough parts changers who cost us a few bad reviews. I definitely don’t want to be one of those guys. Thanks again man!